|
Sheik - the differences you should know
|
|
08/16/2012, 09:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 11/07/2012 07:07 PM by An Easy Frag.)
Post: #1
|
|||
|
|||
|
Frustrated by the complaints that Sheik is "different" as if it wasn't intentionally made so, I have compiled up this list of Sheik changes for the public to read and study so they know how to use her modified moves in P:M. In particular, the dthrow/bthrow mixup. Dthrow - Uses a PAL-like angle of 62 instead of 80, so there are no longer unavoidable dthrow chains or aerials every time this throw is used. However, it launches the enemy twice as fast as it did before so there's less time to react to it. If the victim could be comboed by Dthrow in NTSC Melee, they will be comboed by this throw unless they DI directly away from Sheik. Neutral DI allows dash attacks, Fair/Nair, and regrabs. Inwards DI allows a deadly Usmash tipper. Bthrow - Has higher BKB and lower KBG. Uses a higher angle of 67 instead of 45. If the target DIs away to avoid Dthrow combos, Bthrow will punish that DI and put them in a perfect spot to follow with a regrab, dash attack, aerial, or even an Usmash KO depending on % and floatiness. Even fast fallers like Fox and Falco can be comboed outright following this throw if they DI it towards Sheik, a possibility not seen with the default Bthrow. At the edge, this can lead to a simple run-off Fair for the kill. It is important to mix up Bthrow and Dthrow and condition your opponent into failing to DI the right throw properly. Like Fox and his Uthrow, it is beneficial to you to use your intended throw right when you grab for speed purposes. Rapid Jabs - are rather usable in this game. Their attack rate is higher and they're not as easily cheesed through SDI. They're not entirely abusable, however, as fast and ranged attacks can hit Sheik before she recovers from rapid jabbing them even if done for as briefly as possible. This is easily seen with targets that can quickly DI away and down from the move. Fsmash - is actually decent. The first kick's KB is much more conducive into comboing into the second, and is not ASDI-CCable. The second kick has a higher launch angle, less KBG, and slightly less afterlag. This allows it to combo into something else at low percents, and also at high percents (DI depending). Combine with a stutter step to increase its range for distant punishment. Needles - they are not as effective as they used to be in Melee due to them being clankable hitboxes without their own hurtbox articles in this game. In Melee, they are unclankable, but have hurtboxes placed deeper inside the move's hitboxes. It was these hurtboxes that needed to be hit to cancel out the move, and their deep placement was the reason they were difficult to clank out in Melee. Needles are still great projectiles with a lot of utility and deadly land cancels. Just don't be surprised when an opponent is able to cancel out multiple needles, or even all 6 of them at once with their own attack. This is not intentional behavior, and will be addressed when a viable solution is found. If Sheik has any needles stored but is KOed as Zelda, you will lose the needles even after changing back into Sheik unlike Melee. Chain - Unlike Melee, the chain's hitboxes are unable to clank out projectiles. The electric tipper hit also cannot hit aerial targets, so the effective range is reduced somewhat against people in the air. Brawl mechanics have blessed the chain with the drag maneuver though, which allows the hitboxes to refresh very quickly when the chain is maneuvered with a repeated 2323_2121 motion with the chain flat along the ground. This can deal a great amount of damage in very little time, especially if they dare attempt to CC their way out of it. Like Melee, the chain also has two different sets of hitboxes for ground and for air use. The air hitboxes have more damage + BKB and actually stop the opponent in their tracks when hit. The air hitboxes can be preserved in the ground state by jumping, using the Chain, and landing after the chain is generated, but before it fully extends. It can build a very effective wall at the edge against certain recoveries, or force an opponent's rush into a hasty retreat to escape Chain combo damage. The ground chain's hitboxes have very little hitstun and lower damage, but are more conducive to the chain drag trick against non-CCing targets. The chain jacket glitch still exists, and like always is particularly effective when used in conjunction with Dsmash. Vanish - The damage/KB is Brawl's, so it has some capacity to KO. During the initial jump Vanish does when used in the air, it can grab the edge backwards without warping. You can Vanish and direct the warp facing backwards towards the edge to grab it as per the universal reverse grab mechanic, but you will always be vulnerable for a frame before grabbing the edge this way. Unlike Zelda, Sheik has to warp the full duration before she can grab the edge backwards with her UpB. Transform - is a valid special move due to the efforts in making Zelda be able to compete. When you use it, you're vulnerable for 62 frames before triggering the loading phase for Zelda. During this time you can be attacked and prevented from transforming. When the loading phase is triggered, you're invulnerable to attack until Zelda is loaded. When Zelda appears at the end of the loading phase, she can act instantly. Attacks can also be buffered out of Transform to guarantee they will hit as fast as can be made possible. This discourages people from simply camping her location to attack her when loading the other half, the load time being subject to random inconsistency. These traits are also shared by Zelda's transformation into Sheik. Transform can be used offstage to take advantage of Zelda's better horizonal recovery. If you are knocked far offstage but are decently above the level of the stage, Transform, buffer Zelda's aerial jump towards the stage, then UpB to recover better than Sheik alone would have been able to. Using Transform this way requires SD load times to be reasonably quick, or the act of using Transform offstage might just kill you. Since the loading phase of Transform renders Zelda/Sheik's hurtboxes nonexistent, it can also be used to detach a sticky C4 by Snake. No other character in the demo can currently do this. Another small fact is that while Zelda's Transform retains horizontal momentum when performed in the air, Sheik's does not. Crawl - Sheik retains this ability from Brawl. Since Sheik's crouch is quite low, this is one of the better crawls in the game, perhaps second only to Snake's. Crawling under an opponent's projectile to close the gap and avoid the projectile is a standard use of crawl. There are other, situationally effective uses so don't forget she can do this. Wall cling - very situational even in comparison to crawl, Sheik also retains the ability to wall cling. Aside from stages that have very obvious walls, this can also be used in the small corners of FD along its sides. While clinging, you can wall jump, let go, or even aerial jump straight up by pressing the jump button while still holding towards the wall. This is usable even if you had used your double jump already before landing, but utilizing the wall jump from a wall cling will not grant back your aerial jump if you had already used it. Wall cling can be used to set up Fair edge from more threatening locations with easy timing, or to mix up how you attack from the ledge, as wall clinging after a ledge drop reverses direction and allows the use of Bair. Ledge drop, wall cling, then either jump straight up into a Bair to attack or UpB from the wall to reverse grab the edge again. |
|||
|
|
08/16/2012, 11:16 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/16/2012 11:17 PM by DrinkingFood.)
Post: #2
|
|||
|
|||
|
So except for the dhow, sheik was actually quite buffed (especially down-b). I don't want to tell you what to put in this thread, but B-reversing her needles and canceling them in the air allows her to multi wall jump for purely vertical recovery and mixups on walled stages, kinda like Ike can with side-b, but a bit more difficult to perform. Reverses your momentum from the wall jump back to the wall without losing any height, so that you can be ready for another wall jump. So you may want to include that in there as well.
|
|||
|
|
![[Image: smashmodsgimmicksmall.png]](http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r615/DrinkingFood/smashmodsgimmicksmall.png)
|
08/17/2012, 04:14 AM
Post: #3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Down b is not a buff unless you're only counting switching to zelda
|
|||
|
|
|
08/17/2012, 04:27 AM
Post: #4
|
|||
|
|||
|
Down b RECEIVED a buff in that it turns into a playable character this time around.
|
|||
|
|
|
08/17/2012, 05:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 08/17/2012 05:43 AM by DrinkingFood.)
Post: #5
|
|||
|
|||
|
Exactly. If you're planning on maining JUST sheik in P:M, you might as well consider yourself the equivalent of a melee low tier purist. Maining a character because of the character is fine, but I wouldn't expect it to nab many tourney victories. With a balanced game, I see maining one character pretty much unworkable at a high level. So if you're going to main Sheik, not maining Zelda as well just seems like a stupid idea when you could probably have the best character spread in the game simply for how easy it would be to counter your opponent with basically one move. On top of that, I would bet some of Sheila bad stages would work in favor of Zelda, so you wouldn't even need to worry about stages much like you wouldn't have to worry about how your character works against your opponent's character because of being able to, ya'know, switch mid-game.
|
|||
|
|
|
08/17/2012, 01:27 PM
Post: #6
|
|||
|
|||
|
Spoiler: Sblock contains objections to DrinkingFood's post that doesn't deal with Sheik. As for this list, yeah, I like playing Zelda, so I guess I'll go ahead and learn Sheik too, so I'm probably going to be visiting this list a lot. Thanks Fraggle Rock! |
|||
|
|
|
08/17/2012, 02:36 PM
Post: #7
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'd contend that even a Project:M balanced with every character having an average matchup of 50:50 would still have hard counters that make (most) characters require a backup to handle the situation. Maybe I shouldn't say that everyone needs to main more than one character, but that having a very solid secondary will likely be almost a necessity. And that leading to the best possible second for a sheik main being Zelda because of what I said above. And yeah, I'm not talking about now (I rarely do) so much as I am making a prediction. Also, I need to get my semi-casual friend to pick up Zelda since he already likes sheik (and probably get him to read this thread) so he can maybe beat me a little more often 
|
|||
|
|
|
08/17/2012, 11:52 PM
Post: #8
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hey all, So I've been using project m as a make shift hacked melee to utilize c stick and the such in training mode, and I had a question about shiek's weight. Did she get lighter in project M? I can consistently hit up-throw full hop knee 5% lower than in melee at about 68%(I know she can punish at this percent in both games with nair or fair, but it's more of when is it physically possible sort of deal). |
|||
|
|
|
08/19/2012, 03:56 AM
Post: #9
|
|||
|
|||
|
Weight doesn't affect throw knockback. Although if the throw had been changed itself, that would be a different story.
|
|||
|
|
|
08/29/2012, 02:31 PM
Post: #10
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:Bthrow - Has higher BKB and lower KBG. Uses a higher angle of 67 instead of 45. If the target DIs away to avoid Dthrow combos, Bthrow will punish that DI and put them in a perfect spot to be regrabbed, dash attacked, Usmashed, or aerialed depending on % and floatiness. Even fast fallers like Fox and Falco can be comboed outright following this throw if they DI it towards Sheik, a possibility not seen with the default Bthrow. At the edge, this can lead to a simple run-off Fair for the kill.I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but I believe you can just hold down to get out of both D-throw and B-throw combos. On maining Sheik... You have to keep in mind that your opponent can't change characters. So like for example, if you have to fight Ice Climbers, sure it might help to be able to go Zelda if said IC's player has a pocket Falcon that you're worried about, but if he only plays IC's, you can always have a secondary like Peach too. You don't 'have' to play Zelda because you play Sheik. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
|||
|
|
|
08/29/2012, 02:43 PM
Post: #11
|
|||
|
|||
|
DI down does not work with anyone you could combo with NTSC d-throw in melee. |
|||
|
|
|
08/29/2012, 04:06 PM
Post: #12
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ooh excellent. Fly had previously told me otherwise and being the only Sheik player in Arizona, I thought not to test it.
|
|||
|
|
|
10/23/2012, 10:52 PM
Post: #13
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hi, I'm ALSM. I primarily play Brawl, but I've recently picked up Project M and I am familiar with most Melee techs. I play solo Sheik for now. I believe you can do just as fine sticking to one character as you can have a good pocket character. |
|||
|
|
|
11/20/2012, 04:12 PM
Post: #14
|
|||
|
|||
|
you can do fine sticking to one character. IMO however i think that its just all the more beneficial if you can make that character be zelda, as then u have an invaluable tool during matchups to completely switch the pace and style of gameplay. At high level gameplay, throwing an opponent off like this really takes a toll, as now they must rely on their mental ability to switch their tactics. At a casual level, this difference goes relatively unoticed due to the slack that people have in their gameplay as compared to top level tournament gameplay. Casual to good players generally will leave more openings and require more openings to punish, and tend to stick to generic methods set by the characters traits as opposed to rationalizing a characters options on the spot. Therefore you dont neccesarily see the mental aspects that go into the game, and what a switch of an entire characters moveset can do to ur opponents rhythm. Dont take this as me telling you that ur not a top level player, as i know nothing about u as a player. Im just saying the situations in where that buff to zelda/shiek applies. |
|||
|
|
|
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|
User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)