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Ike Matchup Thread
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06/10/2012, 09:36 PM
Post: #21
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He does alright against her, but I need to confirm this playing with and against her more. As far as I remember Zelda falls a lot for traps, as she has to shield a lot. Ike can abuse this and throw his aerials and tilts into her shield to induce rolls and other actions. Edgeguarding her can be problematic only if you only stand near the edge for a Marth-esque edgeguard. She has trouble with disjointed hitboxes like swords since Melee. On the other side, Zelda has amazing options with her Farore's Wind. Her Dsmash's low angle hits hard Ike's recovery. She also can edgehog Ike's Aether so easily and safer than anyone else with the Farore's Wind (if anybody knows, while on stage you have to jump, teleport diagonally down into the edge, then put the analog on neutral position). I'll post more later after replaying that match-up. |
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06/12/2012, 02:16 AM
Post: #22
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(06/07/2012 11:00 PM)metroid1117 Wrote: I forgot to comment on this, but have you tried re-grabbing Bowser when he (referencing the grab animation, before the throw) DI's down and towards the side of Ike's back? Stuff out of DThrow has been speculated in the past, but Magus said that it doesn't lead to anything on proper DI and I've affirmed that by testing it with my friends. I'll re-test it if you get it to work, but I'm dubious that it will. i ussually mix up my trows with down-trow or foward trow, to mix up how people DI againts me. So people tend to DI my trows wrong alot lol XD |
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06/12/2012, 02:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 06/12/2012 02:44 PM by metroid1117.)
Post: #23
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(06/12/2012 02:16 AM)The Great Gonzales Wrote: i ussually mix up my trows with down-trow or foward trow, to mix up how people DI againts me. So people tend to DI my trows wrong alot lol XD I don't know, I still don't think DThrow should work on anyone with proper knowledge of the move and reaction time =/. I could see FThrow -> QD -> regrab working occasionally because of Bowser's size and how fast the throw is (so you can catch them DI'ing improperly more often), but DThrow has an obvious animation that should be DI'able on reaction; in my Ike ditto set against Vro (which is being uploaded right now), I never got true combo'd out of DThrow because it's not hard to DI properly. EDIT: In case people are interested, the set I had with Vro can be found here. |
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07/15/2012, 03:26 AM
(This post was last modified: 07/15/2012 03:28 AM by metroid1117.)
Post: #24
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I don't like to double-post, but since the last post was a month ago, I think this is warranted. I played a D3 at a tournament today, and it was a REALLY annoying match-up. His grab range is massive and BAir OOS is pretty fast, so you can't really challenge his shield on either side of him like you can with other characters. His FTilt and Waddle Doos are also annoying to deal with when recovering. It could be that I was playing the match-up wrong or that my opponent's style was particularly "cheesy," but it feels like D3 has a slight advantage. Does anyone else have any input on this match-up?
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07/15/2012, 03:32 AM
Post: #25
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If you're having trouble with this matchup, check out advise on D3 Vs. Marth in vBrawl. Much of what makes the matchup difficult for Marth applies here. I don't consider myself proficient enough with the man to advise you further.
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07/17/2012, 03:41 PM
Post: #26
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I played D3 in brawl and when I tried him in P:M against my friends ike I found the match really frustrating. D3 is too slow to deal with Ike fair and QD effectively. My advice is to slow down when playing against D3 and simi-camp him. He's REALLY slow. Maybe I'll try this match out some more though since my snake has a really hard time against Ike. Snake/Ike seems maybe 40/60. Ike gets all kinds of free damage off stage. And I dont mean, "darn he got me" i mean LITERALLY FREE. if i go low i get spiked, if i go high and towards the stage i get a free fair to the face, and if i go high and away from the stage i have to blow myself up not to die. I usually just take the fair since it doesnt kill me usually and then ike has to recover as well. Any advise on the matchup? what makes Ike dislike playing against snake? |
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07/17/2012, 03:55 PM
Post: #27
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D3 slow? He can toss his Dees for some serious distance and his wavelands offer some nice movement options. At first glance, D3 may appear terrible, but he's got insane disjoints and speed for his size. Take a look at how Eli uses D3 to control space: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj4MJQ8gb_s
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07/17/2012, 05:21 PM
Post: #28
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(07/17/2012 03:55 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: D3 slow? He can toss his Dees for some serious distance and his wavelands offer some nice movement options. At first glance, D3 may appear terrible, but he's got insane disjoints and speed for his size. Take a look at how Eli uses D3 to control space: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj4MJQ8gb_s Ooh, thanks for the cool replays. Eli is quite technical. D3 is a lot faster than his brawl counterpart, but i still think waddle toss is really slow (not counting the wave-dash-throw) i think ganon can punish waddletoss on HIT unless it has more hitstun than it looks, or if he sees it coming, short hop it and get a free smash attack. Perhaps its like a slow haduken from Street fighter. Also I dont think D3 is terrible, his huge disjoints and crazy gimp game are top tier. Also, ftilt doing 12%? godlike |
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07/17/2012, 09:05 PM
Post: #29
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(07/15/2012 03:26 AM)metroid1117 Wrote: I don't like to double-post, but since the last post was a month ago, I think this is warranted. I played a D3 at a tournament today, and it was a REALLY annoying match-up. His grab range is massive and BAir OOS is pretty fast, so you can't really challenge his shield on either side of him like you can with other characters. His FTilt and Waddle Doos are also annoying to deal with when recovering. It could be that I was playing the match-up wrong or that my opponent's style was particularly "cheesy," but it feels like D3 has a slight advantage. Does anyone else have any input on this match-up? I lost to that ddd but I learned some things while playing, although not quite fast enough. Basically what he did to me was either throw waddle dees at me, ftilt, or run away and just jump away from me constantly and try to backair. What I ended up trying to do was try to call the fast fall backair and upair it, but i learned a little too late that just standing on the ground and uptilting is better. Your goal is to have him in the air without jumps so you can just upair him over and over again. DDD has no move that beats ike upair if he's coming from above ike and even if he airdodges the upair you should be able to fastfall and uptilt him back up. As far as shield pressure goes just ftilt his shield at max range and he will either roll or backair and it's up to you to call him on it. If they start staying in it just grab. as far as his Ftilt is concerned beating it is just a matter of spacing. I think it's big enough to stuff a shot hop aeriel so what i did was just stay out of range and dash attack him when he whiffed it or just spaced myself to within my ftilt range so he couldn't just throw it out. I think with proper spacing and being able to react to backairs with uptilts the matchup can probably be even, its just suuuuuuper unfun. |
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07/18/2012, 05:50 PM
Post: #30
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I agree with what you are saying. Also I know the player you are talking about personally. Not a bad guy, but will lame you out with whatever it takes to win in tournament. I saw his DDD, all Bair, Shield grab and ftilt. Same as Brawl DDD. It works only until your opponent learns. I doubt that will work again on you :P |
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08/01/2012, 04:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 08/01/2012 05:01 AM by metroid1117.)
Post: #31
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Hey, I played with Fly Amanita's D3 and recorded 10 matches with him. The first five are here and the rest are here. I think this match-up is in D3's favor, but it's definitely winnable. Fly proved how simply ferocious D3's DAir is, it hits through a low/sweetspotted Aether and sets up for either a FAir if you get popped up or another DAir if you DI out of the final hit of the first DAir and try to go low again. DAir is a great move even onstage; it hits really low, so it can pop you up through platforms and set up for combos. D3 can also jump from the edge and DAir (not edgehop; input "jump" to jump up from the edge), which can hit Ike if he's not crouching. USmash is a good way to duck under this and counter-attack, but if you read incorrectly then you'll get punished hard. |
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08/01/2012, 08:20 AM
Post: #32
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I main/Second Bowser, and i think the MU vs Ike would be Either 50/50, or 60-40 Bowser. It goes both ways, really; both characters are similar, because they have huge power and range, usually backed up with slow attacks that can be hard to hit and are possibly punishable. Ike gains a lot of ground and air speed because of his Quickdraw, and Bowser is an amazing tank with an array of Light and Super Armor frames, and all of this comes into consideration when thinking of the MU. Ike's speed in general lets him have an easy time juggling Bowser, particularly in the air (Where he is vulnerable to attacks like Uair, Nair, Bair, etc) or with throws (I've seen vids with Ike chaingrabbing characters using Quickdraw, i believe this would be easy vs Bowser), and Bowser being one of the hardest characters to KO is setoff y Ike having massive power on many of his attacks. What Bowser does have in advantage, though, is the ability to counter most of the things Ike has to throw him, if he plays defensively. Up B OoS will stop most direct approaches, and he has a set of more subtle tools in order to stop Ike's other approaches (Flame-cancelled Fire Breath, his jabs, etc). Bowser's super armor is extremely vital for the matchup, and if used properly you can absorb a lot of Ike's attacks while racking up damage (His Fsmash backstep is the best thing ever, and his Upsmash and Downsmash are amazing for hard reads because of those armor properties they have) and/or eventually going for the kill. Bowser has a godly edgeguard game and Ike's recovery can be subpar on certain stages like Dracula's Castle or Yoshi's Story. Things he can use to edgeguard are Down B (For sweetspots and high recoveries), Fair (for certain recoveries with quickdraw or not properly sweetspotted Up Bs), Bair (Pokes and has semi spike angle), Nair (Super armor frames and sends the opponent offstage timed right, leaving him without his second jump and unable to recover, most likely) and Up B (Fortress Hogging), which will thwart most attempts to recover and/or try to sweetspot the ledge with Up/Side-B. I personally think that Bowser can have the advantage on this MU, but it's pretty even. |
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08/04/2012, 03:48 AM
Post: #33
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(08/01/2012 08:20 AM)chaos_blasta Wrote: I main/Second Bowser, and i think the MU vs Ike would be Either 50/50, or 60-40 Bowser. I respectfully disagree - I've played my fair share of Bowsers and I've never found the match-up to be hard. While it isn't a free win by any means, I definitely feel like it's at the very best 60:40 in Ike's favor or, at the very worst, even. Up+B OoS will only punish badly spaced approaches or badly timed punishes - if Bowser tries to up+B and Ike shields the move, Ike can punish it very easily with QD -> JC grab and start a combo from there. Fire breath leaves Bowser wide open to a NAir or FAir from above and, while the SAF on his smashes are nice, a whiffed Smash leaves Bowser wide open to attack (and reads shouldn't too heavily factored into a match-up discussion anyway, since both players would ideally be playing their characters at the highest level possible). You also forget to mention that Bowser's recovery is extremely easy to edgeguard; Ike's options include reverse USmash, edgehop BAir, FAir, Eruption, FTilt, DTilt, and more. I bolded your statement about Ike's recovery on Dracula's Castle and Yoshi's Story because it is the complete opposite - the walls on those stages (along with Warioware, Yoshi's Story [Brawl], and Green Hill Zone) make Ike's recovery amazing because he can QD wall-jump. This means that on those stages, the only realistic way to kill Ike is to get him off the sides or off the top - any attempt to kill him from the side will be met with a QD wall-jump recovery that is extremely annoying to edgeguard properly. While Bowser does have ways to get around Ike's Aether, I'm surprised you didn't mention DAir, which actually hits right through Aether if Ike tries to recover low or sweetspot. For reference, here is a video of me playing against ORLY's Bowser and here is a video of Vro playing ORLY's Bowser. |
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08/20/2012, 11:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 08/20/2012 11:40 AM by Tripwire.)
Post: #34
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I'm going to to have to agree Ike has the advantage against Bowser especially against his recovery. Also picking any stage with a wall is a terrible idea against Ike.
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08/21/2012, 07:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 08/21/2012 07:06 AM by Hyperception.)
Post: #35
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In my experience with sonic vs ike, I have to say that it's one of sonic's better matchups. But somewhere between 55:45 sonic and 40:60 ike. Thoughts? Very stage dependant... sonic wants those big blastzones and he's one of the few characters who can recover against ike well. |
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08/21/2012, 07:19 AM
Post: #36
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(08/04/2012 03:48 AM)metroid1117 Wrote:(08/01/2012 08:20 AM)chaos_blasta Wrote: I main/Second Bowser, and i think the MU vs Ike would be Either 50/50, or 60-40 Bowser. I don't know what i was smoking when i posted that, but what i meant to say is that Ike's recovery is subpar EXCEPT on Stages like YS or DC. I knew of the walljumping bit, so it was just a mistake of mine. |
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08/21/2012, 03:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/21/2012 03:48 PM by metroid1117.)
Post: #37
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(08/21/2012 07:19 AM)chaos_blasta Wrote: I don't know what i was smoking when i posted that, but what i meant to say is that Ike's recovery is subpar EXCEPT on Stages like YS or DC. I knew of the walljumping bit, so it was just a mistake of mine. Even so, I still think Ike's recovery is better than average even on non-walled stages. QD is surprisingly fast and surprisingly flexible because you can use QD attack to shorten the distance; that way, you can mix up between charging QD and going for the stage or charging QD and stopping it early to go for the edge. Ike's up+B is also annoying to edgeguard because he sends his sword up before jumping towards it. On stages like Battlefield where there's an overhang, Ike can up+B under the overhang and ward off opponents even if they're not close to the edge. If Ike goes high, then the opponent has the option of hitting him (*cough Marth FSmash cough*), but Ike cannot be easily hit if he goes for a sweetspot; if sweetspotted properly, I doubt that even Marth's DTilt can reach Ike from down there. Unlike Falcon or Ganondorf, Ike should not die just from getting off-stage. |
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08/21/2012, 07:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/22/2012 01:29 AM by Kizzu-kun.)
Post: #38
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If Ike sweetspots perfectly when doing Aether, his hurtboxes will be way below the ground level, however he won't hit anything when he throws his sword. Remembering that his hurtboxes diminish when he is spinning due to his animation.![[Image: 6sffpv.gif]](http://i47.tinypic.com/6sffpv.gif) That means that ground attacks hitboxes need to reach really below the ground and aerial attacks need to reach below the character's ankle. In Marth's case, it is impossible to hit anything besides a super strict Dair. Also, it is easier to hitconfirm Shield Breaker than Forward Smash as you have 2 extra active frames if Ike does not sweetspot. The best option for edgeguarding Ike from the ground for most characters is edgehogging him, the second best is dropping and doing a Bair/Nair to stagespike him. Bowser does have options when Ike sweetspots actually, if he is fast enough Down B on the edge always hit Ike. It can be followed up with Bowser <100% Ledge Attack at low damage. At high damage, it will stagespike Ike. Teching is a bit weird comparing with Melee, but it is possible in this situation. He can also use his Side B into the edge, if he is fast enough it'll edgehog like Spinning Fortress. If timed correctly is possible to grab Ike when he is rising and throw backwards, but is somewhat strict and Bowser will likely die after the throw. He can use the Spinning Fortress to get into the edge faster, which is Bowser's safest option so far. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb1RTIhzRtI |
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08/23/2012, 05:51 PM
Post: #39
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(08/21/2012 07:02 PM)Kizzu-kun Wrote: If Ike sweetspots perfectly when doing Aether, his hurtboxes will be way below the ground level, however he won't hit anything when he throws his sword. Remembering that his hurtboxes diminish when he is spinning due to his animation. I saw this post the day you made it, but I kept forgetting to respond until now. Kizzu, you are truly awesome. Thanks for showing what a perfect sweetspot looked like, I knew it was quite low but not that low. |
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