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Good approaches for fox?
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05/12/2012, 06:08 PM
Post: #21
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K so 2 questions. The information on waveshine follow-ups on smashboards for melee doesn't exactly apply the same way in demo 2 do they? and is the training mode info on combo links accurate? for example, i can't waveshine upsmash some characters such as marth or mario, however i can waveshine forwardsmash and the hits are consecutive as far as the counter thing goes. Then again maybe i'm too slow; however, this is in training mode meaning there is no di involved so i wouldn't be able to accurately describe accurate waveshine follow ups with di involved. so yeah just wondering cuz i started making a list of characters and the possible waveshine follow ups without di involved in demo 2 intending to post it here because it might be helpful especially considering the newly introduced character match-ups. i mean you guys started off saying you could approach with almost any aerial L-cancelled into shine however this could be further extended depending on the match-ups. |
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05/13/2012, 09:39 AM
Post: #22
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I don't think waveshine -> fsmash really works... fsmash should be too slow to actually combo. and if you can waveshine -> upsmash, you could try waveshine -> drill -> upsmash or something. |
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05/13/2012, 03:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/13/2012 03:46 PM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #23
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Thats what i thought thats why i've been wondering if the consecutive hit counter is truly accurate. I could post the list of follow ups so fr and then maybe itll get cleared up later. But i mean you could try it if you want waveshine -> Fsmashll work on characters who can be upsmashed out of waveshine as well as a few others who slide a little too far to be waveshine upsmashed unless directly out of a dash using the dashes momentum. Anyone who desn't tech the shine and can potentially be jab reset are jab reset from the fsmash, if executed quickly enough just like they can also be upsmashed out of waveshine if done within a tighter window, and haven't teched of course. This can be tested by just setting up for practicing Thunders' combos but instead of jab resetting going for an fsmash. I'll post my findings i guess, they can be fixed later. And is anyone having trouble waveshine upsmashing bowser? and i mean from a stationary position no running or hopping momentum added. I mean it appears possible and ive done it but not consistently because due to the way his hurtboxes recoil in hitsun from the shine he is out of upsmashes range without further momentum added or a very well timed perfect wd. For example: Mario and marth like i mentioned as well as Ness, In addition marth slides mad far has it always been like that? i thought he could be drillshine upsmashed without proper di. then again maybe i'm not techskilled enough haha. |
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05/13/2012, 03:53 PM
Post: #24
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(05/13/2012 03:44 PM)Foxy_Faux Wrote: Thats what i thought thats why i've been wondering if the consecutive hit counter is truly accurate. I could post the list of follow ups so fr and then maybe itll get cleared up later. But i mean you could try it if you want waveshine -> Fsmashll work on characters who can be upsmashed out of waveshine as well as a few others who slide a little too far to be waveshine upsmashed unless directly out of a dash using the dashes momentum. Anyone who desn't tech the shine and can potentially be jab reset are jab reset from the fsmash, if executed quickly enough just like they can also be upsmashed out of waveshine if done within a tighter window, and haven't teched of course. I said the samething on smashboards about Marth pushing wayy to far, but i think it's the 1 frame disadvantage. Or maybe, it's just that shining opponents in this game gives off different animations and kinda push them further back. Either way it's a nerf vs Marth. |
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05/13/2012, 04:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/13/2012 04:13 PM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #25
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yeah, it probably is exactly a combination of those two and why the window of opportunity for waveshine upsmashing bowser is really timing sensitive. It kind of makes me feel all the more iffy about the fox-marth matchup but we'll just hafta wait and see. at least theres waveshine -> dash attack then maybe follow up with uair for the kill instead. if not just go for running upsmash or upsmash out of shield, tho upsmash OoS is harder in pm.. Though the more i think about it the more it bugs me because isn't marth a counter to fox anyway? Though im guessing it will probably be fixed in some way because after all the goal was to keep melee's high-top tier the same in pm right? |
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05/13/2012, 04:53 PM
Post: #26
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The combo counter display is messed up on heavy characters after the 2nd shine or something strange. On heavies like Bowser, DDD, DK, and Ganon combos off a single shine will list it as a combo properly, but even something like: shine WD shine WD jab won't show as a combo when it should despite still being in hitstun and unable to do anything for another 10 frames or so when the jab hits. |
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05/13/2012, 04:56 PM
Post: #27
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According to the smash Wiki, fox has no "counters".
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05/13/2012, 05:08 PM
Post: #28
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Hyperception, are you talking about MU counters? iirc, I think some Melee fox players believe that Falco has a slight edge over Fox on stages with platforms. |
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05/13/2012, 05:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/13/2012 05:59 PM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #29
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Well i meant to say the mu isn't that bad for marth against fox and this would just bring marginally closer as fall as technicalities go. drillshine upsmash is a monster. marth can chaingrab spacies and easily gimp, mew2king vs dashzwiz 3 to 1 comeback was kind of devastating. and it was all gimps and chaingrabs, the mu for fox and falco against marth is essentially not to get grabbed, and marth has a good grab range regardless. marth doesn't even necessarily have to approach and if the player is good enough the swords spacing would theoretically make him near untouchable, how many foxes have beaten mew2kings marth in recent matches or tournaments or whatever? Essentially fox is losing out on a tools for one of the few characters he actually has a deal of trouble with, while retaining it against the vast majority of the other characters. Oh and magus. is the hit counter error only after the second shine? I initially just mentioned bowser as a weird case where his hitstun hitboxes are in a position where upsmash cant hit unless one perfect wavedashes mad quick after the shine cuz the window of opportunity for stuff like that has potentially been narrowed by the 1 frame off issue. but yes there is still a window. I'm just double checking my observations before i post a new thread or whatever. |
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05/13/2012, 08:36 PM
Post: #30
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marth/fox and falco/fox are really even and very stage dependent (in melee). I'm not 100% sure about his P:M matchups yet, but they seem similar in that a few characters do ok against him, then he rapes everybody else. |
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05/13/2012, 08:49 PM
Post: #31
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Correct! Or at least i hope so. And that being the case consistent techskill is going to be a serious must for anyone trying to play fox now and we can drop all the top tier bandwagon-ers. Because given the various buffs to certain other characters noob foxes are gonna be raped by all the lower learning curved characters if they dont put in the work. Like Bowser. How do you think the matchup is between sonic and fox? they are both fast, but in ridiculously different ways, i mean fox combos like a monster, but sonic capitalizes on fox's meh recovery. |
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05/13/2012, 08:53 PM
Post: #32
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From when I was testing it was only after the 2nd shine yeah. Before that it displays correctly. |
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05/14/2012, 05:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2012 05:08 AM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #33
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K so the waveshine follow up list is on a new thread, however so far i've only put the grounded follow up options excluding tilts. We can figure out the rest later, tilts for the most part would only be effective in certain matchups.
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05/14/2012, 11:45 AM
Post: #34
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(05/13/2012 08:49 PM)Foxy_Faux Wrote: How do you think the matchup is between sonic and fox? they are both fast, but in ridiculously different ways, i mean fox combos like a monster, but sonic capitalizes on fox's meh recovery. Sonic cant challenge any of fox's moves, and uthrow comboes still work on him. Also up b goes through spring and sonics fair is hilariously easy to meteor cancel. Fox wins that matchup |
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05/14/2012, 01:13 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2012 01:16 PM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #35
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Nice! yeah i remember hearing someone say that in a livestream or something where sonic was spose to be somewhat of a gimp character but his moves have crap priority and most anyone con just trade blows and get more out of it. that seems like a really lame way to play the matchup though. Though i mean, shine spike doesn't work as well on sonic as it does for people with worse vertical recovery, though dedede tanks shinespikes but now that he doesn't have armor on his upB dedede will likely take some damage from shine abuse. and fox can always bair edgeguard for stuff like sonic though he'd have to watch out for homing attack just in case cuz that could turn the tables a slight bit. |
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05/14/2012, 02:33 PM
Post: #36
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I don't like playing against fox while sonic. Homing attack seems more unreliable for gimping than it used to be (to the point where I've completely given up on the move for that purpose) and I only have one aerial to deal with your recovery at a consistent rate (bair). Sonic doesn't "trade" blows. He just loses trade situations as though he never attacked in the first place. On the bright side, sonic's recovery is pretty hard for you guys to deal with (since he's invincible for the middle portion of the Spring). |
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05/14/2012, 05:50 PM
Post: #37
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Well the way Sonic gets around attacks is he hits characters at really odd angles with moves that send him really fast. Fox can basically reposition himself at almost anytime and stick a hitbox wherever Sonic is going to be on reaction, and he also kills Sonic REALLY easily. |
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05/14/2012, 07:11 PM
Post: #38
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I think fox probably rapes sonic hard... sonic just doesn't really have anything he can do |
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05/14/2012, 07:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2012 08:00 PM by Foxy_Faux.)
Post: #39
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That kinda sucks for sonic... I thought he'd put up a better fight. As if being thunder comboed by fox wasn't enough, he has such crappy options. do any of the new cast members have a decent mu against fox? or is it just situational at best? |
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05/14/2012, 08:09 PM
Post: #40
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DK does decent because he's basically the same character but faster, stronger, and with alot more range, but I wouldn't say he wins it. I wanna say Wario does alright too. Thing is, the fact that all the irrelevant characters got buffed and Fox is the same with all the matchup knowledge people have, you just have to play smarter with him than in Melee. He's still a dominant character. What's funny is alot of characters particularly some of the old ones have some specific anti-spacies tricks, but Fox/Falco's character designs allow them to adapt to pretty much anything so it's not really a huge deal to be honest. |
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