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What's going on with Bowser's Side-B?
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02/22/2012, 08:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 02/22/2012 09:01 PM by Shade_.)
Post: #1
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As broad as this might sound. I feel like the current situation entitles me to fairly ask this question. This isn't really a complaint, I just want to get where the devs are coming from. Bowser's Grabs have always been just fine. Side-B has always been fine. Was there really any good reason to give him a whole new set of grabs for side-b? And new button inputs to go with it? Not to downplay the effort that's been done to him, but 'a+b' attacks, that really doesn't feel like something that should be in smash bros. I mean what's next, 'r+b' with Samus shoots ice beams? Hold down 'y' to make kirby's first jump twice as high? If brawl- is going to take a turn in this direction, I really don't know what to think of the game anymore. Regardless of whether I'm comfortable with it or not, essentially, the side-b grabs are all superior to their normal grab counterparts. Especially in damage. The only one that you still might want to use instead of side-b is up-throw. Aside from that the side-b grabs outclass the normal ones to the point where they really shouldn't be used anymore. By adding this whole set of new attacks and controls, I feel like you've voided the need for other attacks. Also, I remember vividly a lot of recommendations for changes on a lot of characters in the past being shot down because they were "not true to the original character" which is why I thought everyone agreed to keep any changes within the area of things that make sense for that character. This is why Falco's blaster hasn't been replaced with a machine gun, or why Samus doesn't shoot Falco lasers instead of the normal charge shots. It just would be out of character. I really doubt the new side-b additions that have been made to Bowser's character really come from some thing from some game he's been in. In fact, if I remember correctly, they are from street fighter. What's going on? If I wanted to use street fighter attacks, I'd play street fighter. Bowser shouldn't play like a street fighter character. |
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![[Image: 33xh5wy.png]](http://i43.tinypic.com/33xh5wy.png)
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02/22/2012, 10:27 PM
Post: #2
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bowser had too many problems with global super armor, then he had just as many problems when we took it away and BPCified him and turned him into a boss character. this is the only fix that we could possibly think of that doesn't completely polarize match ups like they do in 2.1.1. and as far as his regular grabs being useless, I disagree. his RBG has considerable start up (without SA) and cool down, there is no way you could use that if someone hits your shield with something with low lag. and considering that you can't do his crazy grabs from a normal side-b, its fairly balanced. |
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02/22/2012, 10:40 PM
Post: #3
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I have never heard so much complaining about awesome things in my life. In all seriousness, though, you really don't need to worry here. Whenever we make changes to characters, we do so because enough people agree that it's totally awesome. And that is exactly what's happening here. Bowser's grabs aren't just options for the sake of options, either: they are each unique and viable for their own specific purposes. And these special grabs certainly aren't overshadowing Bowser's normal grabs, because they lack one very important aspect: speed. It simply isn't possible to connect with Bowser's special grabs in many situations where you can connect with his regular ones. As for your concern about ice beams and super jumps, don't worry. The phrase "over-saturation" has flown around quite a bit during development, nixing many ideas not unlike the examples you've given to voice your concerns. To put it another way: we got you, bro. This isn't to say that nobody's going to get a new move, but it certainly means you don't need to worry about characters getting stuffed too full of things they don't need. And as for Bowser, we assure you: everything that has been done, has been done for the sake of awesome. Bowser is incredibly fun. |
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02/22/2012, 10:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 02/22/2012 10:47 PM by Fuse.)
Post: #4
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(02/22/2012 08:58 PM)Shade_ Wrote: Hold down 'y' to make kirby's first jump twice as high? Spoiler alert: You have now learned how to full-hop vs short-hop. Secret technique get. (02/22/2012 08:58 PM)Shade_ Wrote: If brawl- is going to take a turn in this direction, I really don't know what to think of the game anymore. Shade, of all people, I wouldn't expect this from you. What the fuck does "this direction" even refer to? Do you even know what you're talking about yourself? Don't be obnoxious. This (Bowser) would make the FIRST and likely the only character that will ever receive a change quite like this; I'm pretty sure this is no reason to start freaking out. Bowser has needed a makeover for quite some time and everyone knew that. (02/22/2012 08:58 PM)Shade_ Wrote: Regardless of whether I'm comfortable with it or not, essentially, the side-b grabs are all superior to their normal grab counterparts. Especially in damage. The only one that you still might want to use instead of side-b is up-throw. Aside from that the side-b grabs outclass the normal ones to the point where they really shouldn't be used anymore. By adding this whole set of new attacks and controls, I feel like you've voided the need for other attacks. It appears you don't quite understand how the new Bowser works. I don't know why you're comparing the two different sets of grabs considering they each use different situations to get them. I can give you two reasons why the new grabs don't completely overshadow his old grabs. 1. The only way to unlock the special set of grabs is by grabbing someone with the Running Bear Grab (activated by holding A during the startup animation of Fire Breath). This move has a fairly long start up time, and is incredibly linear. 2. Shield grabbing (02/22/2012 08:58 PM)Shade_ Wrote: I really doubt the new side-b additions that have been made to Bowser's character really come from some thing from some game he's been in. In fact, if I remember correctly, they are from street fighter. What's going on? If I wanted to use street fighter attacks, I'd play street fighter. Bowser shouldn't play like a street fighter character. This paragraph is really cool. Edit: Fuck, Thunda beat me to it. ;3 |
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02/22/2012, 11:52 PM
Post: #5
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The super-armor thing is fine. I never had a problem with the changes made to that. It's very well done. No problems there- Lol, I was imagining more like something really quirky like kirby won't jump until the button is released, and how high he goes depends on how long the button was held. I'm not saying that the changes made aren't awesome and should be taken out. I was more saying that they are out of character and change what grabs to use. Essentially what has happened is normal grab from shield, and after you shield stun the enemy, or want to grab someone's shield, or anytime you have the opportunity to land either grab it is better to aim for the side-b grabs. Also, you can do side-b grab from a jump (which can be canceled with a jump before touching the ground) which makes it much safer in general as opposed to the normal one which leaves you open. Though I haven't tried this yet, but unless you took it out, then this statement is still true. Obviously instead of taking them out, I could just Not use them- I'm not asking for that. By "this direction" I mean adding in button inputs that weren't there, creating moves in addition to old moves instead of replacing them, making characters more complicated than they need to be by increasing their number of available moves. All I'm just saying if "being awesome" is the only thing needed to legitimize giving a character extra characteristics/moves like this, then I can think of a whole bunch of things that you could add to extra characters to make them "awesome". Link (a+b) should make him do some attack like Cloud from FF7, that would be awesome, but I don't think it really fits Smash. Either way. I'm not gona say "take it out". I was just concerned what type of changes are we going to see at this rate. I already saw the Link side-tilt + 'a'. Personally I feel that changes involving button combinations like a normal fighter game should be avoided. Swapping attacks is fine, but inserting button combination based moves just isn't smash. I know it doesn't take anything away from a characters potential to give them extra awesome stuff. It only adds on. You can call me old school, some of the changes just feel very foreign to me. I'm not against new things though. I'll use new tricks if you give them to me, just making sure you all are sure you wanted to really expand minus in this direction. |
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02/23/2012, 12:23 AM
Post: #6
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Don't worry: the new tricks add good depth and are not gimmicks to be removed at a later date. The changes are fantastic, and Bowser is noticeably less polarizing than before. March 1st, man, March 1st. |
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02/23/2012, 10:50 AM
Post: #7
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(02/22/2012 11:52 PM)Shade_ Wrote: The super-armor thing is fine. I never had a problem with the changes made to that. It's very well done. No problems there- I do agree with Shade on the fact ALOT of changes have been made and we don't know anything about them. The changes should come back to the ideas of the community. But I guess I will be playtesting a **** ton on march 1st lol |
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WOMBO|
03/01/2012, 07:42 PM
Post: #8
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(02/22/2012 11:52 PM)Shade_ Wrote: You can call me old school, some of the changes just feel very foreign to me. Okay, I think I will. DIFFERENCE IN OPINION ROOT IDENTIFIED. CONVERSATION RESOLVED. |
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