Samus 2.1

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Samus 2.1

05/19/2011, 05:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05/19/2011 09:49 PM by theEffinBear.)

Post: #1

theEffinBear Offline

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Samus 2.1 Summarized Changes from 1.6

This post lists out only the gameplay-affecting changes in human-readable format; if you're interested in the fine details of how it all works with copious quantities of hex editing, see Samus full changes.

All listed kill percentages are the lowest pre-hit percentage that a Training Mode Mario set to "Control" (to prevent the CPU's DI) will die at on Final Destination.

2.0 and 2.1 changes

roll dodges: IASA 5 frames sooner (now Samus and Bowser tie for longest-lasting rolls in the game).
grabs: gun grabboxes last longer on standing/pivot grab, standing/running/pivot grabs last 66/55/65 frames (vBrawl: 90/72/90 frames; Minus1.6: 70/65/62 frames)
throws: b-throw and f-throw kill slightly a little later, u-throw deals only 8% but heals Samus by 4% (grapple voltage!).
Dash Attack: SHINESPARK~~ starts killing at 124%, late hit lasts an extra 2 frames and sets up combos well even at higher percents (before it starts killing at 192%). Both hits drain a good amount of shield.
d-tilt: reduced damage 17->15%, kills at 121%.
f-tilt: deals 11% damage (10% at foot) regardless of angle, hitboxes become active 1 frame sooner, whole thing ends 2 frames sooner.
all smashes: if you charge any of Samus's smashes up at least 1/3 of the way = 20 frames, there will be a visual cue indicating that you can now hold B during the actual smash attack to cancel it into the corresponding-direction Special move.
d-smash: the (1/3-charged only) cancel to down-B starts 16 frames sooner than the regular IASA.
f-smash: the (1/3-charged only) cancel to shoot a Super Missile 8 frames after the hitboxes start, but costs an extra 19 total frames to do so. High f-smash shoots the missile roughly the same height as the ordinary grounded Super Missile; horizontal f-smash shoots a little lower; and the low f-smash's Super Missile practically hugs the ground. Also, the f-smash hitboxes last 4 frames, up from 2.
u-smash: the (1/3-charged only) cancel takes the place of the final u-smash hit. Note that the u-smash will only link to the up-B cancel if your opponent starts out rather close to Samus. And besides the cancel, it actually links! It deals 5+1+1+1+12 damage (down from 5+5+5+5+6, but with knockback compensation on the relevant hits).
shorthop: initial vertical velocity 1.435->1.3, giving 51->46 frames of airtime (on level ground).
n-air: larger hitboxes make it able to hit short (and even prone) opponents, has IASA 6 frames sooner, late hit deals less damage (11->8%).
f-air: autocancels 5 frames sooner, IASA happens 5 frames sooner.
b-air: sweetspot deals 14%, which kills at 70%/106% from edge/center of FD; sourspot deals 12% and kills at 111%/155%.
u-air: autocancels 3 frames sooner, IASA 3 frames sooner.
d-air: damage 17->15, growth 100->107; bounce-kills at 151%.
z-air: early z-air is strictly for combos now, dealing only 4 damage on hit. The late/sweetspot hit deals 11% and can kill, but only at fairly high percents (127%/177% from edge/center of FD).
grounded down-B: less vertical bounce, more mobility on the ground while Morphed, and lots more momentum preservation.
Missiles: the missiles start a little inside of Samus's gun-arm now (helps prevent Missiles from whiffing when someone is inside Samus's personal space).
Homing Missile: keep homing for 60 frames, homing capability reduced to 0.055, and their hitbox is very similar to Morph Ball Bombs (i.e. sets up a combo very well).
Super Missiles: they really MOVE after an initial delay. Once a Super Missile hits anything or is destroyed, it creates a secondary ice burst 48 frames = 0.8 seconds later! Both the impact and the ice burst eat through shields rather well.
up-B: both grounded and aerial are harder to escape from now, and the final hit is somewhat enlarged on each. Grounded up-B deals max 26% damage; aerial still deals up to 23%, and it now keeps Samus invincible through the first hitbox (but has slightly lower knockback growth to compensate).

PLAY AND DISCUSS.

/RtEB

05/20/2011, 06:31 AM

Post: #2

The Cadet Offline

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Big. Ass. Changelist.

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05/21/2011, 07:44 PM (This post was last modified: 05/21/2011 07:47 PM by Shade_.)

Post: #3

Shade_ Offline

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Dude, I just want to say I'm actually very impressed and happy with the changes made for my main character, I just have a few things to say. Please don't take it like I'm bashing anything when I make a long post about it, but I am comparing Samus to high-tier characters when I say I think certain moves should be slightly buffed.

Again her range game (homing missiles) has been slightly nerfed, but I'm not going to complain about it. This makes her less spammy and I am fine with that because her close range can be buffed instead. So I will not ask for improved projectiles. Even though I would say Link, Falco, are much more effective far range characters than Samus at this point.

The B-air changes are good. I think the hit box for the sweet spot is slightly too small though. In a actual fight against someone that DI's, Samus's sweet spot B-air takes too much time to line up. This is mainly because many of Samus's best chain moves such as down-air and n-air don't give enough knock back for Samus to place herself at the right distance and right height.

I think what makes it tricky is that B-air is designed to be a kill move, yet her best set-ups for it are from d-air (bounce) and from shine-spark. Both of which are only possible to combo from under percents around 50%. At which point b-air can not be a kill move. Also, another reason I think the hit-box should be increased is because compared to other high-tier b-airs like Luigi's, Marth's, Wolf's, Robs, I feel that it is harder to land, more risky, slower, has less priority, and is only "slightly", very slightly stronger. All in all not as effective or easy to use as a kill move as other character's b-airs.

(This is just a friendly suggestion) Down-tilt, I'm guessing is supposed to be a kill move, but it could very easily be used as an attack to link to b-air instead if you lower the knock back significantly. (Something to consider).

N-air is a weird move in my opinion, in that I don't really know what it is supposed to be used for. It's a fairly weak attack compared to a lot of things in minus, it doesn't have the best range or priority either. And in terms of combo moves, the best thing it links to is, well, another n-air, (which doesn't do anything really). Her best forward air-attack is "charged sot", however, n-air often pops them up too high for that. I think if you just left n-air exactly the same and just made the hit-box and priority bigger (like it was in Melee, and for Link's n-air in melee) the move could at least function for a intercepting move for anti-recoveries or a combo-breaker. Right now, it's very hard to use. Low, range, kill, knock-back, and nothing to combo to afterward make using it kinda meaningless.

Up-air...never hits with the last hit lol. Another up-smash like problem. I think if you just made the final hit box huge like Falco's f-air, everything would be fine.

Her f/b -throws, what happened to them? (I love the up-throw now btw lol) but just a couple patches ago, they killed from the middle of FD at 111%, now they don't kill until 190%? Down-throw doesn't stun long enough anymore either. Down-throw no longer chains to anything. I just finished doing training mode with my brother. He was Diddy-Kong, and at all percents he was able to jump away from anything Samus could do after down-throw. Basically, her throws are not usable anymore. They have way too much cool down to be used safely in any situation, and even if you land a throw, you can't combo or kill with them.

Her side-tilt used to be one of her best kill moves. Could kill at around 110% from the middle of FD. Now they kill at 195%. Side tilt still has pretty huge cool down time compared to tilts, Marth, Rob, Luigi, and Wolf have, and it doesn't kill anymore either. I think it was better before where it could be a kill move.

Again, not bashing your work. I'm just nit-picking after playing a good 4 hours against my brothers high-tier characters. I'm actually really happy with mostly everything else you've done with Samus.

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05/22/2011, 06:56 AM

Post: #4

filbert Offline

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I gotta say, Samus keeps getting better and better with each release. You started with something as dumb as Lolimar, and turned her into a fun character with really interesting options. You've evened out her projectiles and close combat games.

D-throw: Somehow, the hitstun got removed or something. This move is currently, for all intents and purposes, useless. Putting back the hitstun would make this a good combo starter again.

F/B-throw: I would reduce the knockback on f-throw and increase the knockback of b-throw. Basically, f-throw would be a launcher and b-throw would be a kill move. The 2.1 patch took two good throws and made them both useless. I would make the two throws distinctly different, serving completely different purposes.

D-tilt: Samus doesn't really need another medium-powered kill move, she needs more launchers. I would drop around half of the current KBG and drop the BKB a bit.

F-tilt: This move isn't bad, but it sure seems outclassed by the other options. If possible, I think you should speed up the animation, make it interruptible pretty early, give it low knockback, and have the trajectory send the opponent slightly airborne. In general, at low percents it would be a lead-in to shinespark or SHZair and at high percents a lead-in to a full-hop missile.

N-air: The current nair is like the current f-tilt. It's not bad, but it's outclassed. I think you should make it have a slight spike and be jump-interruptable on contact. Basically, if you take your opponent too high in a combo, you can lower both of you a bit.

U-air: Again, pretty much what Shade said (there's a twist). The last hit of u-air should be bigger, something simple to make it connect properly. Maybe lower the DI multiplier. Now, the twist: on the last hit, Samus should get a bit of downward momentum and the hitbox should also be a weak pull down, pretty much a reflection of what it is now. With past builds, it has happened way too often that after an u-air, I'm in the worst position possible: too high above the ground to fast fall and jump again before the hitstun wears out, but too far below to hit with anything other than the last hit of an u-air or a couple hits from up-b.

Misc: Is it possible to make Samus' fast fall faster while she's in morph-ball form? If it's possible to mess with morph-ball attributes, this should definitely be done.

I hope some of these get added with the next patch.

PS: New Smashes are awesome.

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05/27/2011, 04:27 PM

Post: #5

RAI

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uair is ugly. I like aiming for the same effect Falco has on fair. I always thought it was cool that you could let your opponent drop out of uair with their DI and catch them with another aerial (this is hard to explain). The large hitbox would take that out, but it only ever happened about twice to me ever and I doubt I got the point across here.

I have serious problems with dtilt. I think it should be a quick ranged move. I want it to have more range than dsmash, because right now dsmash starts faster, has a better angle, and can be used while running. Dsmash is more rewarding in most situations than dtilt. The only thing dtilt has right now is a little less cooldown time.

Does dash attack have hitlag? Can that be removed?

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05/28/2011, 01:32 AM

Post: #6

theEffinBear Offline

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As always, necessary caveat: anything here will need tuning (and/or even not adding it in the first place) for balance reasons, but I'm always interested in talking about making Samus more awesome.

CURRENTLY TESTING THE FOLLOWING:

f-tilt: keep hitboxes lasting one extra frame (pre-2.0, active 7-9; 2.0, active 6-8; now testing 6-9), interrupt after frame 25 (was 31 in vBrawl, 29 in Minus 2.1).
I'm pretty set on f-tilt being a GTFO move instead of a kill move (that's what f-smash is for). But I definitely want f-tilt to be USEFUL as such a GTFO move! Interrupt after frame 25 ( = IASA on frame 26) is just after Samus's foot touches back down on the ground, and feels very fast. (For Minus 2.1.1 comparison, Wolf's f-tilt has interrupt after frame 16, Luigi after frame 32, Marth after 35, DK after 33, Squirtle after 29, and Sheik after 21; Samus's own jab.1 has interrupt after frame 17.)
smashes: reduce required charging time 20->15 frames before enabling the relevant cancel.
I mainly don't want Samus's c-stick'd f-smashes to be able to fire Super Ice Missiles; I am currently testing this 15-frame requirement, and am also planning to try 10 frames. For reference, Wario's f-smash JC only requires 5 frames of charging, though I think that's a bit too soon for Samus's f-smash.
n-air: sweetspot size {5.5, 6.5} -> {6.5, 7.5}; sourspot size {5.0, 5.0, 6.0} -> {5.5, 5.5, 6.0}; all angles 55°->45°
I had forgotten that I'd set the n-air to a 55° angle -- from play, it felt like 45° already because of how gravity affects the victim's trajectory. This new (under testing) 45° angle makes the n-air much better at comboing into other things (f-air, z-air, Charge Shot, dash attack) and worse at comboing right back into another n-air.
b-air: sweetspot damage buff back to 17%, but kills the same; sourspot killing buff, but same damage; +0.5 size on all hitboxes.
I'm pretty happy with the sweetspot b-air as a slightly less powerful f-smash, but having it deal less damage than even n-air felt wrong. Hence the damage boost and compensatory growth reduction! Sourspot killing so late also felt wrong, hence the growth boost there. The slight increase in hitbox sizes feels pretty good, and doesn't feel overpowered either.
u-air: links way better, hits at a low angle with less knockback.
It's a multihit move whose final hitboxes are uniformly SMALLER than its set-up hits. Good work, Sakurai! And I'd never actually looked at it, so good work me too. But now it's FIXED. With some angle changes, knockback tweaking, etc, the move actually links properly now (not quite as well as the u-smash, but pretty darn well considering it's an aerial with free movement by Samus throughout the attack). I also dropped the angle on the final hitboxes to 30°, which makes the move rather good at setting up a Charge Shot/z-air if the opponent is hit forwards, or a b-air if they're hit backwards. The Slash element on the final hit makes it much more obvious that the move was successful when the opponent is at low percentages.
If you hit your opponent with the linking hits but land before the final hit, that will usually pop them up just high enough, and put them in hitstun for just long enough, to jump+combo into an n-air or another u-air.

Still pondering:

roll: I'm worried about making the roll end sooner than it now does, but perhaps adding momentum ( = increasing the roll distance) would work well.
dash attack: should we either reduce the KO power for combos, or increase it so it kills sooner? Make the initial killing hit last only 3->1 frames and have the late hit be a pure combo starter instead? Also thinking about giving it some extra horiz momentum at the start, and planning to look into making a Sword Glow on some pieces of her suit.
(Note: the increased hitlag was an intentional nerf to go along with the severely increased shield drain; but I'm willing to play around with it along with the possible +momentum.)
d-tilt: turn it into a strict launcher instead of killing? (higher base, way lower growth) More range? See if there's a "Sloped Terrain Interaction" that could make the d-tilt actually hug the ground even on Yoshi's Island: Melee (a.k.a. Pipes)?
Note that d-tilt starts ~3 frames and ends ~13 frames before d-smash does, which is significant; d-tilt also reaches a little further forwards than d-smash. But I could definitely see a secondary burst of flame further away, like a miniature version of Snake's angled f-smash, dealing ~half damage or so. Maybe also adding an Interrupt command so it finishes sooner.
throws: do they need to be buffed back up? Two killing throws might be too much given the buffs to Samus's grab itself, but perhaps just one of f-throw or b-throw for KO'ing?
Leaning towards making b-throw be better at killing again, while leaving f-throw relatively unchanged (or even bumping up damage?).
Missiles: I MIGHT be able to make it so that forward-B decides between Homing and Super missiles based on how long you hold the B button (like Yoshi's up-B egg distance), instead of whether you smash the control stick. That could be pretty sweet.
Charge Shot: earlier interrupt out of firing that thing, and/or giving Samus some kind of hitboxes while recoiling from the aerial Charge Shot? (possibly even on the grounded one?)

So... thoughts and reactions?
/RtEB

05/28/2011, 10:20 PM

Post: #7

Raynotac Offline

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Oh. My. God. I love everything you just said. Samus is one of my favorite characters to use. And you have already covered everything thing I thought of when it comes to improving Samus. Well, almost everything. I've been thinking that D-Tilt should crawl along the ground after the initial hit, and the crawling part looks like the Dark Beam from Metroid Prime 2. Do that, and I will freaking worship you.

Roll, doesn't feel like it really needs to be buffed. Bomb is getting to be pretty decent. This might make it broken, but what if you could perform certain attacks between the point where the bomb comes out and Samus touches the ground. Bomb, then use any aerial (except for z-air) is what I had in mind for that.

Missiles. Yes. I'm all for making it easier to choose what one to use.

05/30/2011, 11:19 PM

Post: #8

RAI

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Ftilt as a GTFO move- 10/10
Smashes changes- cool. I hardly use smash attacks with Samus because floating in the air and attacking or using projectiles is usually better. I like the flare, and I can see the f-smash super missile being lots of fun. But the rest of it doesn't excite me.
By the way, what you did to upsmash is wonderful. You are talented and its awesome that you fixed that.
Nair- Good job. You turned a good move into a better move. Samus could use a great move.
Bair- Sounds like just what we asked for
Uair- Another project as wonderful as the upsmash? Sweet. I can't wait to appreciate this.

Roll is all kinds of messed up
Dash attack... I'd experiment with that attack. I like the idea of very little hitlag because you really can't do much to them if you have to turn around because of a momentum boost. The hitlag period would have to depend on the power of the move itself or the momentum boost. And I don't think Dash attack should kill... it just doesn't seem to be rewarding for the player to kill someone with a dash attack. Even if it does have glowy armor kind of stuff.
dtilt is a fast killing move. But your opponent has to be in that dot for it to work. I don't like making the dot bigger and I don't like making the attack weaker so it can do something other than kill. Its like your very specific tool that does one thing. I think other moves need to see creativity, because I don't know if there is much to do with that attack.
Throws... make bthrow kill and fthrow not as much kill power. Fthrow seems to me to be a GTFO throw. Just saying.
Missiles and charge shot... do whatever you want. I only really want to be involved if we are making the missiles as difficult to dodge as they were in 1.6. Or bringing them somewhere close to that level Smile

You do great work with Samus. And I do appreciate your conservative view. The game is in balancing mode.
Plus you have a good eye for what aesthetically works.

06/01/2011, 05:12 AM

Post: #9

TL?

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reply to testing changes:

bair: damage and hitbox size are irrelevant only knockback matters. The old samus had no problems with damage or sweetspotting bair.

roll: please no extended rolls. It would be nice to keep the basic/universal things(rolling, ledge attacks, those sorts of things) somewhat consistent. No other character has had changes to their rolls.

dash attack: I would prefer this to be strictly a combo move, although the current dash attack works alright.

throws: personally, I havent had any problems with the current throws. All I need is the dthrow to set up combos really, and it does that. I wouldn't be against throw buffs though.

missles: please do not change the fundamental controls of the game. Facepalm

homing missles: These knock the opponent too high. they no longer combo into charge shot very well.

Charge shot: charge shot is perfect and needs no changes. It's supposed to send you back and not be interuptable in exchange for how powerful it is.

dair: like many have said, kbg is too high. This shouldnt kill on its own, it should combo into bair or charge shot.

smashes: I dont think they should interupt in special moves at all, speeding it up only makes things worse. Besides, the side smash is the only one that isn't completely awkward.

06/01/2011, 11:54 AM

Post: #10

Oro?!

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damage affects knockback

so no character should have unique properties?!?! Facepalm

I would like dash attack to be strictly awesome, by any means.

of all missle changes, holding to determine type is not needed

the fact that anything combo'd into charge shot before was a problem. Find new ways.

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06/01/2011, 09:48 PM

Post: #11

RAI

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Samus with a uniquely long roll would be really cool. It would make Samus a sort of character that is harder to combo than others and shuts down things like D3's dash attack covering 3 options or Bowser's upsmash covering lots of options. If the roll was increased I would try to keep Samus at the Sub-par killing power she is at (sort of... charge shot still decimates things).

I like having charge shot difficult to combo into. Makes it more rewarding to pull off and less of a "I have a fully charged charge shot so don't get hit or else you're dead." Because it kind of sucks for both players when each stock takes about 30 seconds.

My opinion is to keep the missiles as is. BUT if you do change the 'fundamentals of the game' its okay. I mean look at Lucas and Ness. WHY in the name of the devil is a DJC default? Since when is a DJC fundamental? huh? yeah... thats right. I'm not trolling.

Samus is one of my favorite characters. I like how the new changes are working out.
yet again... play around with zero hitlag on that dash attack. I just want to see a video of it if you have the time, or send me a replay... please?

06/04/2011, 04:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06/04/2011 04:56 AM by Shade_.)

Post: #12

Shade_ Offline

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The new Samus does have problems sweet spooting b-airs, especially against high tier characters.

I kinda like Dash attack the way it is to be honest. If she needed a staple combo move, I think d-tilt, d-air, and missile should be it. It's a pretty good feeling when your opponent is at high percent and you dash-dance > dash attack kill.

I just had an idea, and though I like it for personal reasons, I can easily see why people would be against it, but I'll put it out there anyway. What if up-B could be canceled into 'n-air', or like air attacks in general? Of course, make it to where you couldn't do another one until you touched the ground, but it would definitely add some spice to her game.

And for her roll, yeah no other character really had their roll revolutionized in minus, but no other character's roll is as bad as Samus. (Bowser doesn't count as an example lol). It needs help of some kind.

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06/04/2011, 05:48 AM

Post: #13

Raynotac Offline

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Up-B cancels into an aerial? Bricks. They have been shat. In a good way.

06/04/2011, 11:18 AM

Post: #14

Thunda-Moo Offline

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Man I love the new dash attack. The Speed Booster was always my favorite power-up.

As it is now, I think it's exactly what Samus needed: a quick kill move that doesn't need to be set up or charged, so changes to it should be in the "making it more like the speed booster" department. On that note:

I'd definitely like to see it going farther faster. Woosh!
I'm a fan of the dramatic hitlag. Partially because it's dramatic, partially because it makes the move unspammable and punish-only.
I am 100% in love with the idea of better visual effects.
I am somewhat against making it more combo-starterish.

In general I like everything that was done to Samus, but have no more time to comment on it right now.

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06/05/2011, 05:00 AM

Post: #15

Shade_ Offline

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I don't think speed booster needs to go farther, (though I would definitely not mind it doing so). It's pretty flashy the way it is.

And yeah, up-b cancel to air attacks would be nice. It's not like she could kill from it anyway. None of her sour spots have that kind of knock-back. It's basically just adding some extra flare to her combo ability.

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06/06/2011, 08:52 PM

Post: #16

~~Bowser the Train~~ Offline

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2.1 made a Samus main out of me. Seriously, I tried to time a friend out but I kept accidentally killing him with Super Missiles, wtf. Big Grin

06/06/2011, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 06/06/2011 10:16 PM by Shade_.)

Post: #17

Shade_ Offline

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Mispost, ignore this-

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