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Grappler Bowser?
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04/03/2011, 02:10 AM
Post: #21
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This: "For Side-B, it could be interruptable only at the top of the arc." is what confuses me (I'll assume Mouse as well), and this: "Doing nair could be cancelable into either jump, up-b, or both. In order to fully abuse the wind. Which should become less random." doesn't really clarify. |
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04/03/2011, 02:29 AM
Post: #22
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Sorry. The windbox on the nair is hard to predict and control. As such, simply having the nair be interruptable by jump would be pointless. I would make the nair wind less random, so as to make jumping out of it more beneficial. Heck, I'd even make dair cancel the upwards movement from the jump. With Side-B, after he grabs someone, he goes into a flip. At the top of the flip, it could be interruptable into dair. But only at the top. If it was interruptable later, it would be OP, but at the top of the arc, dair could be a legitimate combo continuer. |
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04/03/2011, 03:25 PM
Post: #23
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That makes more sense now, but would the Side-B still do damage itself?
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04/03/2011, 03:36 PM
Post: #24
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The initial grab would.
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04/03/2011, 10:35 PM
Post: #25
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Armor HAS to be changed already, it is just broken. Certain matches are currently unwinnable against Bowser, no matter what you do, if Bowser plays turtle style, the match is already over.
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04/04/2011, 12:24 AM
Post: #26
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Like? Name me one and I'll tell you exactly what to do.
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04/04/2011, 05:39 AM
Post: #27
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"Unwinnable" is a bit too far, but Bowser definitely has one-sided matchups. Sonic and Fox come to mind, especially on small stages where there's less room for them to abuse their speed.
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04/04/2011, 12:11 PM
Post: #28
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Don't go to small stages. Both sonic and fox do just fine against bowser if the stage is not like, one of Bowser's best stages. Granted, the matchup becomes like 80-20 on Warioware...
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04/04/2011, 03:47 PM
Post: #29
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Weren't fox's aerials all buffed to beat Bowser's armor in 2.0? Except dair, obviously. But yes, it should be changed and I really think the think TheEffinBear and I came up with (really mostly him, of course. Discussed here.) would work extremely well. |
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04/04/2011, 05:03 PM
Post: #30
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Oh, maybe Fox did get that. Didn't notice. Even then, it's certainly Bowser's advantage. And as for the "don't go to a bowser stage" bit... We are aiming to make a competition-ready game, yes? As in, the kind that allows stage counterpicking in a tourney ruleset? But more important than just scenarios like that is the fact that playing against Bowser, fair or otherwise... Just isn't that fun. I've probably said this before, but characters should have advantages based on their options rather than just their passive characteristics. Looking at Street Fighter as an example, Dhalsim is really good at shutting down zoning and approaches. But that's because he has long-range strikes and good anti-air and anti-fireball moves, not because fighting him disables your jump button or because he's immune to hadoukens. Likewise, Bowser should be really good at taking hits and powering through attacks, but it should be more involved than just "I'm Bowser, so that attack doesn't do diddly." |
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04/04/2011, 07:47 PM
Post: #31
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Fox can use his Up-Throw. That can do crazy stuff. At low percents, it chains. At higher, it leads to uair.
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04/05/2011, 11:01 AM
Post: #32
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(04/04/2011 03:47 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: Weren't fox's aerials all buffed to beat Bowser's armor in 2.0? Except dair, obviously. Nair, Bair, and Uair all break through bowser's armor now. The matchup is completely playabe. Also, I'm not a fan of the idea of changing bowser too much. Let alone the fact that the idea of a real release (i.e. not a patch) after 2.0 is still up in the air as to its existence... (04/04/2011 05:03 PM)Roager Wrote: Oh, maybe Fox did get that. Didn't notice. Even then, it's certainly Bowser's advantage. And as for the "don't go to a bowser stage" bit... We are aiming to make a competition-ready game, yes? As in, the kind that allows stage counterpicking in a tourney ruleset? How many good stages does bowser have? (To be clear, I am advocating a very liberal ruleset with 3 stage bans.) Quote:But more important than just scenarios like that is the fact that playing against Bowser, fair or otherwise... Just isn't that fun. I've probably said this before, but characters should have advantages based on their options rather than just their passive characteristics. You don't find it fun... I find it hilarious. |
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04/05/2011, 03:26 PM
Post: #33
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A lot of people don't find it fun. The fact that you find it hilarious is great on your part, and that's one of the reasons I think TheEffinBear and I had such a great idea for the change: it will keep all that stuff you like so much about Bowser's playstyle but remove the issues involved with the majority of his match-ups. I really think it's the best way to go for everyone. In terms of how it's coded, it may be a "big change," but in terms of playstyle it is certainly not. Frankly, people shouldn't be playing as Bowser any differently then they were before!
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04/06/2011, 03:36 AM
(This post was last modified: 04/06/2011 03:39 AM by Roager.)
Post: #34
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The main reason I don't find Bowser fun is that his matchups often devolve into repetitive hit-and-runs with the fastest armor-breaking move you have. There's so little in the realm of following up your attacks compared to other fighters. By adding a chink to that armor, such as the one discussed in the thread Thunda linked, the non-Bowser player gets expanded punish options, and it means Bowser has to play it a little smarter. As it is, the armor means that Bowser can be punished by fewer moves *and* gets punished less each time since the armor breaks combo setups. Nerfing the armor (but keeping the tanking game alive) means a more dynamic, yet still very unique, set of matchups. EDIT: Good Bowser stages would be... WarioWare, 75m, maybe Smashville, maybe Halberd. 3 stage bans would cover it sufficiently, but it seems like a pretty big limitation to stage choices. Has there been much discussion on a minus ruleset? I haven't heard anything. |
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04/06/2011, 11:30 AM
Post: #35
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We're still working on it... I will bring this up among the rest of the BBR, but I will say that there is hesitance to change Bowser. |
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04/06/2011, 12:29 PM
Post: #36
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I've noticed! Personally, I thought that Bowser's move armor (as described in that link) should be more then his current armor for most of the moves (not jab, etc.) to make up for the apparent nerf as well, but of course you'll notice many other such methods bounced around in TheEffinBear's posts. TEB is a back roomer now too, right? I'm sure he can get you all the details. |
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04/06/2011, 04:45 PM
Post: #37
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Why is there so much opposition to work on Bowser? Does it just seem like it's not worth it? Or like those of us that want the changes are just whining because we don't know how to beat it? I don't mean to sound like that, if I do. I really like the idea of an armor-centric Bowser, I just feel like it needs to be more refined.
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04/07/2011, 09:49 PM
(This post was last modified: 04/07/2011 09:50 PM by Thunda-Moo.)
Post: #38
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Well, I've just started to learn to program this game, and I gotta say... it takes forever. I'm sure it took plenty of time giving him universal heavy armor, but removing that and putting it on every move... that would take SO DANG LONG. We're suggesting a pretty minimal change that takes a pretty crazy amount of coding to preform, and that's not super-appealing considering how much they worked on the first one. (Coding this crap is like, really crazy. It's not just adding a "heavy armor here" line. Doing so apparently changes the thing that other actions use to go to that action, so you have to find every instance of that subroutine and change the number or some crap like that. And you have to do this for nearly every move, which I guess would be... at least around 25 moves, but most of those are more then one subroutine. DK's giant punch, for instance, is eight different subroutines by itself, plus a number of special function things.) Basically, if someone were to actually code that baby and say "Here, test this! It's so much better!" all the back roomers would probably be all like "awesome!" But right now they're like "We're not going to code all that nonsense just because you think it will be more fun but not even any more balanced! Bowser works the way he is, you know!" And I totally do not blame them. If someone would direct me on how to find and remove Bowser's universal heavy armor code, I might be able to find time to cobble this idea together... |
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04/08/2011, 12:06 AM
Post: #39
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Yeah, we can't ignore the fact that this stuff is not 2.2 second projects. It takes time to make a well rounded product, let alone change the product. It's like trying to change a clay model that is already hardened out of the oven. Tough stuff...
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04/08/2011, 07:59 AM
Post: #40
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It's not that we're lazy. Well, okay, that too. We just have no idea how this would cause bowser to react, and most of us are pretty happy with Bowser's overall design.
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