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Snake Info Dump. [DEMO 1]
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02/10/2011, 04:45 AM
(This post was last modified: 04/21/2012 10:53 PM by smk.)
Post: #1
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Setup: Mario on FD, controller port 2 Spawn. Attacks hitting towards the left side. Percentages are before the attack damage is added. Moves with killing power F Tilt [Second hit only sweet spot]-> 118 U Tilt -> 130 D Tilt [Sweet Spotted]-> 193 D Tilt [Closest hitbox] -> 145 Dash attack -> 176 F-Smash -> 52 F-Smash [Fully charged] -> 25 Down Smash - > 106 Down Smash [Fully charged] -> 60 Up Smash -> 200 Up Smash [Fully Charged] -> 190 Fair [Sweet Spotted] -> 85 Fair [Closest Hitbox] -> 124 Bair [Sweet Spotted] -> 110 Uair - 124 Nair [Final hit only] -> 136 Up throw -> 217 C4: 92 Grenade - 168 C4 Combinations Up Throw + C4 -> 64 Dash attack + C4-> 67 Down Tilt - C4 -> 63 Up Tilt + C4 -> 62 Fair + C4 -> 70 Bair + C4 -> 75 Uair + C4-> 58 Dair [All hits] + C4 -> 65 Down Smash + C4 -> 46 Grenade + C4 -> 63 Moves that kill YOU - added 2/10 Fox - Up Smash -> 88 Fox - Fsmash -> 109 Fox - Up Air -> 106 Fox - Up Throw + Up Air -> 79 Marth - F-Smash Tipper-> 65 Marth - F-Smash -> 127 Marth - D-Smash Tipper -> 90 Marth - Nair Tipper -> 165 Marth - Dolphin Slash -> 109 Shiek - Up Smash -> 139 Shiek - Down Smash -> 147 Shiek - Fair -> 135 Shiek - Uair -> 143 Shiek - Bair -> 131 More to come. Grenades 1) Grenade -> Shield -> Jump -> Catch -> Throw is your second fastest way to throw in the air if you want to have more control of where you throw. 2) You can do the above, but with instant throwing. Dear god the timing is retarded. 3) You can wavedash out of shield to grab your grenade as well. 4) B-reversed aerial nade to wave dash to directional throw with the C-stick is great. 5) Just generically pulling a grenade to wavedash is good as well. 6) Grenade -> backwards wave-dash -> catch ledge is pretty nifty. 7) The same, but on a platform such as on BF is equally nice. 8) If you wave dash out of the grenade stance near the edge of a platform's ledge, you can instantly throw it or plant C4. 9) Wave dash off platform, b-reverse-> wave dash is super sexy. Options after planting Landmine 1) Pivot Grab. 2) Roll [Ew] 3) Retreating/Approaching Fair/Nair 4) Wave Dashing 5) Replant Landmine 6) Dair the landmine while rising to explode it. 7) Full hop B Reversal. [lands in front of mine. ] 8) Mortar Slide. 9) Cypher 10) A single Jump Cancel throw puts you JUST out of range of the explosion radius. Misc 1) Dair is 'non recoverable' as a spike at around 20% on Mario. 2) You can actively dair someone as they trigger a landmine for a great amount of damage. [32] You won't take any damage! =d 3) Snake usually falls from the lip of FD to the edge of the visible stage between the time of dropping a C4, and detonating it. 4) If Snake is a short hop's height above the lip in Fd, a pulled grenade will detonate, saving him. Due to the quicker explosion time, it allows Snake to take less damage when you need to gain height when recovering if used preemptively. FD and you. 1) Snake can safely recover from doing any of his aerials as a walk off from the stage. 2) Fair is the only aerial that won't kill you when you fast fall. 3) The lip plays nicely with your Cypher. 4) B-reversing out of cypher when you're near the lip and otherwise would die, will often put you back onto the stage. Crouch is pretty Op. <-- New Move's that can't hit: Marth's Uptilt Marth's Nair Marth's Bair only hits when fast fallen at the last moment. Sheik's Bair. Captain Falcon's Bair Captain Falcon's Fair is extremely tight to time. Captain Falcon's Jab Link's Bair can usually only hit the last hit, and that's tight. Link's Uptilt G&W's Uptilt G&W's NINE won't hit. Some will though. Zelda's Jab Zelda's Nair only hits once. Zelda's UpSmash Ganon's Jab Ganon's Fair Ganon's Bair Ganon's Nair Ganon's Dash attack [If started -very- close to you.] Ganon's Ftilt [unless angled down.] Ganon's F-Smash [Unless angled down.] Ganon's D-Smash Ganon's U-Smash Jigglypuff's Rest. Jigglypuff's Pound [unless angled down quickly.] Snake's C4 cannot sticky you. Sonic's Fair can only get one hit in. [4-6%] And pretty much every upair in the game. Grabs that fail: Marth's Grab fails 90% of the time. Ganon's Grabs Zelda's Grab Captain Falcon's Grab Sheik's Grab fails 90% of the time. |
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02/10/2011, 07:39 AM
Post: #2
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A+, good work! Have you seen Snake's grenade recovery? 2:25 on this video. Less damage than the C4 recovery (and a little easier in the higher gravity if you space it right). |
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02/10/2011, 07:52 AM
Post: #3
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I love you. the community also thanks you in a platonic way |
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02/10/2011, 04:33 PM
Post: #4
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(02/10/2011 07:39 AM)JCaesar Wrote: A+, good work!I hadn't thought to do it that way, but I did write about using grenades in certain situations. Snake is going to be very hard to gimp, since he's able to get incredibly high. I've yet to actually play someone, so everything that I've done is based on speculation on what I know as players of both games, hence why I haven't delved into any theorycraft. (02/10/2011 07:52 AM)Hyperception Wrote: I love you. No problem. I'm going to go about figuring out Snake's suriviability when I get home from work vs the major moves: Shiek's Fair Fox's Up smash Falco's F-Smash Falco's D-Tilt Marth's f-smash Etc. I feel that it's important to help the creation of a Snake metagame since most players are just going to default to the characters that they already know. Snake has a lot of catching up to do. |
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02/11/2011, 03:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 02/11/2011 03:07 AM by linkdude.)
Post: #5
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Seems snake still dies by getting grabbed at the edge of the stage and getting released. He does not regain his jumps like the other characters. Is this intentional? I was pretty sure that when i grabbed another character, that character regained their jump.
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02/11/2011, 11:53 AM
Post: #6
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we'll look into it
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02/12/2011, 02:01 PM
Post: #7
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I'll be putting up some videos tomorrow from gameplay today with other La-Smashers. It'll be our first attempt at ProMelee. Hopefully we'll be able to divine something from the footage. ;d
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02/12/2011, 03:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 02/12/2011 04:09 PM by MasterMooseMan.)
Post: #8
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(02/11/2011 03:02 AM)linkdude Wrote: Seems snake still dies by getting grabbed at the edge of the stage and getting released. He does not regain his jumps like the other characters. Is this intentional? I was pretty sure that when i grabbed another character, that character regained their jump. I think JCeaser said thats cus you grabbed the cypher thing, not snake ..which i'm guessing is still intended for it to not give him jumps back |
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02/12/2011, 04:54 PM
Post: #9
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^^makes sense. I was about to test it myself, but this answer seems correct. We need a page like this for all of the characters. I will soon have a comprehensive list up for Zelda, as I already have her advanced techniques page up. |
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02/13/2011, 07:55 AM
Post: #10
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Thoughts from yesterday: Well, I forgot to record the matches since I was really tired. >> Anyways, from the looks of it Snake is now very much a vertical killer, and he has lost a considerable amount of frontal control since he's f-tilt is no longer disjointed. Wave dashing out of shield with a grenade is crucial, and you can even do it to the edge to have a grenade cover spacies' recoveries on stage. F-tilt is best done slow, since the second hit is only strong if you sweet spot it, and if they fail to tech you can Down-B them. Really, Snake is a total keep away character that should be running around the entire match. I often used his plant land mine to go under incoming aerials from Captain Falcon, and so forth. Curiously enough, your Super armor from Cypher Recovery makes shine-gimping IMPOSSIBLE on Snake. Talk about the Fox players were annoyed at it. =d Speaking of living long, I found that I was constantly frustrating my opponents through the survivability of Snake's varied recoveries. Most melee kills are generated through Gimps from my experience, and Snake is -very- hard to traditionally gimp. Falco excels at it though. >> To be honest, Falco might be Snake's hardest match up in the future. Jab to C4 seems to work against certain characters. Might not be true, but it worked enough for me to get some kills. Down throw tech chase is still important. Shine is frustrating to deal with from Falco. F-smash DESTROYS some recoveries. Fair isn't as good as I thought it was going to be. Dair is just as good as I thought it was going to be, amazing at gimping and setting up combos. Nair is great. Up air feels like the hitbox is too small, due to Snake's mobility. I did some teams matches, and Snake seemed fairly adequate as support/stock tank. Land mines and C4 are amazing. =d |
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02/16/2011, 05:14 AM
Post: #11
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Updated the grenade section. Also, I'm starting to feel that Nair auto canceled before the final hit has some good potential with mixing in jab/Retreating pivot grab.
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02/16/2011, 07:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 02/16/2011 07:51 AM by Fino.)
Post: #12
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(02/13/2011 07:55 AM)-Ran Wrote: Thoughts from yesterday: If you roll towards the edge, pull a nade, and shield drop it, the nade won't land on the stage but fall downward. Great way to punish people recovering low, as you can read for an fsmash or a bair follow-up Very glad to hear about shine gimping, but I must ask... what about falco makes his gimping ability so good compared to others? Also, are you coming from the brawl side of the community or the melee side? I want to get with some melee people to get their perspective on ideas with Snake. The melee players seem to be predominately focused on combo aspects with Snake, meanwhile I've been working on a lot of traps and option limiting/safe play with Snake coming from the brawl community. I've noticed vastly different approaches to playing characters from brawl/melee players... so I think sharing ideas would be a great, fast way to establish Snake. I'll be at Pound 5, so I'm hoping to get as much info as I can beforehand 
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02/16/2011, 04:13 PM
Post: #13
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On my phone, so short reply... I'm a brawl Snake player. =d Landmine, wavedash back, grenade tap back for high throw and f-smash is stupid in terms of how many options it destroys when it comes to approaching/recovery. |
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02/16/2011, 10:45 PM
Post: #14
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Crouching is godly against some characters. Also, I see what you meant about falco's ability to gimp Snake. His moves don't explode nades as easily as other character's do <.< |
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02/17/2011, 06:33 AM
(This post was last modified: 02/17/2011 06:40 AM by -Ran.)
Post: #15
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- Cypher's super armor destroys a dair to shine approach by Fox. Both moves fail to break the super armor for Snake. Anything that does 7% or less damage will be in this same boat. - Shine doesn't explode grenades. - Jab to JC grab is nice. - We really need to sort out our ability to chain throw or have it done to us. - Halbred might be the best CP against Captain Falcon, due to the ability to camp in the center indention, which when coupled with crawling/landmine planting makes it -very- hard to approach for Captain. - The viability of F-smash crushing recoveries drastically increase on levels that have lips such as Fd and PS1. - Fast Fall Nair two hits to jab full combo /Jab to Jc grab / Jab to C4 can do solid damage, and SHOULD be great shield pressure mix up. - I've been getting the hang of Mortar Sliding again. Up to about 80% consistency. It'll be a good chase move for people that hard DI during Up throws, or if you want to catch someone that is rolling out of a down throw tech chase. - The down throw tech chase is still very traditional, however, with the ability for Snake to plant land mines very quickly now, you can bait people into doing get up attacks after a few conditionals. - Rainbow cruise might have become a great Snake level, due to the nature of Snake's recovery, his desire to juggle upwards, and the killing power and plant speed of explosives. - Up throw to down tilt at low/moderate percents works very well on spacies. It'll hit both sides. You can then follow up with Mortar Slide. I'll post some videos tomorrow if I'm not too tired of the basic walls, grenade tricks, and so forth for all the lurkers. |
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02/17/2011, 03:23 PM
Post: #16
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downtilt seems to have become one of snakes best gtfo/pressure move. It's sooo safe and fast now and snakes crouch goes under a lot of the current cast's quick options.... and for the ones it doesn't at low percents, since you're dtilting, you'll crouch cancel their attack and most likely hit them anyway. Describe the fsmash thing to me a bit more, I don't quite get how to use it. is there a hitbox that hits below the stage or what? .-. |
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02/17/2011, 03:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 02/17/2011 05:59 PM by -Ran.)
Post: #17
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On my phone.... For f-smash, think Marth's f-smash, but stronger and a better hitbox. If they sweet spot too high, even slightly, they die. The f-smash has a really nice hitbox. |
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02/17/2011, 05:11 PM
Post: #18
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Wouldn't do you any good. Nearly every hitbox in the game has been shrunk to match Melee hitboxes better.
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02/17/2011, 11:31 PM
Post: #19
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Snake's crouch is crazy good. If the frames are the same as Brawl, it's 3 frames to enter crouch, and 3 to get out if you IASA them each. Crouch is pretty Op. <-- New Move's that can't hit: Marth's Uptilt Marth's Nair Marth's Bair only hits when fast fallen at the last moment. Sheik's Bair. Captain Falcon's Bair Captain Falcon's Fair is extremely tight to time. Captain Falcon's Jab Link's Bair can usually only hit the last hit, and that's tight. Link's Uptilt G&W's Uptilt G&W's NINE won't hit. Some will though. Zelda's Jab Zelda's Nair only hits once. Zelda's UpSmash Ganon's Jab Ganon's Fair Ganon's Bair Ganon's Nair Ganon's Dash attack [If started -very- close to you.] Ganon's Ftilt [unless angled down.] Ganon's F-Smash [Unless angled down.] Ganon's D-Smash Ganon's U-Smash Jigglypuff's Rest. Jigglypuff's Pound [unless angled down quickly.] Snake's C4 cannot sticky you. Sonic's Fair can only get one hit in. [4-6%] And pretty much every upair in the game. Grabs that fail: Marth's Grab fails 90% of the time. Ganon's Grabs Zelda's Grab Captain Falcon's Grab Sheik's Grab fails 90% of the time. |
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02/18/2011, 01:07 AM
Post: #20
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Haven't seen this posted anywhere, but uthrow > dair is really good at low percents. Planting is guaranteed if all four hits of the dair connect. If you can get a low percent plant, your goal should be to get them off the stage ASAP. If you don't, the more that stock drags out, the higher the chance your C4 will fall off. I generally try to get them off with a forward/back throw or ftilt. Then you want to det the C4. At that point of the stock, its a guaranteed fair setup, and can kill fairly early. |
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