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Character Idea Submission
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01/16/2011, 02:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 01/16/2011 03:25 PM by drpepper111.)
Post: #1
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Submit all ideas to the PM:BR in an organized fashion. This thread is for users who would like to share anything they believe would help a character's development in PM. 1. Write the change or changes you would make 2. Explain the change in well written detail 3. Explain why you believe it would benefit the character's overall game Do not critique others ideas to harass or flame. Do critique to improve the idea or share why it may be undesirable or unnecessary. Have fun. |
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01/16/2011, 02:09 AM
Post: #2
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This is a good thread. I do not expect PMBR members to post in it too often to avoid biasing it, but we will definitely keep an eye on it.
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01/16/2011, 02:11 AM
(This post was last modified: 01/16/2011 02:18 AM by drpepper111.)
Post: #3
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I'll start with a couple of my ideas. Zelda's side-b: Tap/Smash or hold/tap B to pick whether to use Melee style detonations or the newer timed explosions. You can put 3 timed explosions down and the 3rd detonates all of them like normal. If you use the Melee incarnation however, you detonate all timed charges that exist. You can also use the Melee style Din's Fire without any preset timed versions on the battlefield. I think this would help Zelda camp more effectively than with only the 3 timed charges and more effectively than she could in Melee as well. The combination of both would allow her to pressure or harass fast characters like Falcon or Fox while also being able to disrupt any characters approaching Zelda with the timed charge's detonation. DK's Down-b: Allow a jump cancellable IASA only upon hitting an enemy with the attack and this includes shields as well. It'd benefit him in not spamming the move with the condition of hitting an enemy, but is useful enough to become viable. He could use this to cover tech chase options, predict and punish spot dodges, and to pressure shields continuously. If it were to be too imbalanced, I'd suggest reducing the range on his hitbox. |
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01/16/2011, 04:54 AM
(This post was last modified: 01/16/2011 03:18 PM by Ulevo.)
Post: #4
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EDIT: Moved to stage thread.
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01/16/2011, 11:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 01/17/2011 12:45 AM by Timic83.)
Post: #5
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ideas are based on what i experienced when i was in pmbr - initial hit of shieks up air should be ntsc killer, stale hit is pal comboer best of both worlds make it so marro cant climb walls so easily i mean its rediculous on draculas get the game to work off usb my wii can barely read discs anymore and it seems all wiis disc drives deteriarate quick |
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01/16/2011, 01:58 PM
Post: #6
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Ulevo, the Bowser stage would immediately have problems with Falco camping the left side behind the hole lasering and trying to dair spike anybody that came to him. There are no edges for gimping besides the hole in the middle. Melee's metagame concentrates around gimping of characters as a large factor in gameplay. I believe most Melee players would see the stage as the same way as I have: nonviable. For the SSE stage, the platforms are so haphazardly placed around by the careless Nintendo dev team that they are almost functionally useless. Platform placement in Melee is very, very important as DL64, FoD, PS1, BF, and YI:M's platforms are all placed in such a way they all have different strategies and different uses for characters. Stages are gonna be a weird development in PM. Stages will become redundant after a while and I'd expect only a certain number of neutrals (7-9 perhaps) and a few cps. That being said, I'd like to see development of franchise stages like Metroid or Legend of Zelda because it adds more to the canon feeling of the game than SSE or Dracula's Castle (Dracula's Castle is amazingly well done nonetheless). It'd make PM feel less like a mod and more like a normative installment in the Smash Bros series. |
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01/16/2011, 02:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/16/2011 02:08 PM by Ulevo.)
Post: #7
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I will admit that you may have a valid concern for Bowser's Castle in regards to camping on the left wall. I personally have yet to experience that sort of issue, however, and I feel it would be worth testing. I do disagree completely about Subspace Emissary. It isn't a neutral necessarily, but it is a valid counter pick with many characters being able to take advantage of the platform layout in a variety of ways. In either case, I'd like to note that if a problem were to be discovered with the platform layout, I imagine it would be a rather simple task to make minor changes to restructure the layout to make it more manageable. |
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01/16/2011, 02:17 PM
Post: #8
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(01/16/2011 02:07 PM)Ulevo Wrote: I do disagree completely about Subspace Emissary. It isn't a neutral necessarily, but it is a valid counter pick with many characters being able to take advantage of the platform layout in a variety of ways. I'd imagine seeing camping shenanigans by Peach's floating, fast characters like Fox, Falcon against slow characters on that stage- basically, what was wrong with KJ64 in Melee. ' Wrote:In either case, I'd like to note that if a problem were to be discovered with the platform layout, I imagine it would be a rather simple task to make minor changes to restructure the layout to make it more manageable. Yeah, once a suitable plat layout is created, the stage won't be bad. |
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01/16/2011, 02:45 PM
Post: #9
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Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't KJ64 a valid counter pick at nearly every major tournament? I'm not denying that character advantages you described were present, but that is what constitutes a counter pick over a neutral---advantages. Also, before I reply any further, do you feel this discussion should be divided in to two threads? One for stages, one for characters? If so, I'll edit my post to later include character ideas and just move this over to a new thread. |
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01/16/2011, 03:04 PM
Post: #10
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KJ64 has been a CP at just about every tournament, but now, the Melee BR is proposing banning KJ64, RC, and Brinstar to see if a different stage list is more beneficial to Melee. I was also thinking of the same thing. I will create a stage thread. |
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01/16/2011, 04:36 PM
Post: #11
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I think pit should get an up b abit like what marth has. Pit's up b should send him about as high as falco's upb if he went straight up. he should use the blue wings of icarus to send him straight up. it would not have much startup lag, and would either hit straight up or sweetspot for a hit them out (left or right) and just a tiny bit up (like around a 15 degree angle). im not sure about sweetspots but i think if it hits them around pit's wings it would send them straight up and below his wings would send them out just above the horizontal. and if it hits after the initial animation, like if it hit at the top wile recovering, it would not hit them nearly as far. Pit's up b is way to slow and doesn't fit in this project at all. since pit will probably have a glide like peach and/or multiple air jumps, his horizontal recovery range will be fine without an up b that goes horizontally. the multiple jumps also makes him able to get pretty high up as well, so he does not need a great up b for recovery. but this upb can be used as a GTFO move out of shield and can give him an extra gimp move offstage if you can sweet spot it. |
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01/16/2011, 11:57 PM
Post: #12
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1. Kirby can jump out of his Down-B on frame 18. Transforms into stone form on frame 10. 2. This would allow Kirby to grab, wave-dash, up air and up smash directly out of stone. 3. Gives Kirby a unique, new mechanic that would add depth to his game. It gives him several new options (which he was severely lacking in Melee) and, finally, would give players the opportunity to say wavestoning. |
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01/17/2011, 04:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/17/2011 04:56 PM by Ruekaen.)
Post: #13
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While I do agree kirby does need more options in stone, jump canceling it would seem to make it a tad too powerful. A character shorter than my shins that has the ability to move while attack invincible for the match seems kinda...unfair. The only character I was aware that could do this before was Mewtwo, and he was the size of Fezzik. I would rather suggest make kirby's rock special cancellable upon hitting ground (other than down b of course). This makes ways to deal with people too close (neutral b), people who stand really far away as a type of zoning (up B), and even to juke those planning to rush from mid range (side B). This way, rock makes it much more viable to recover high safely, and the options out of which make it risky too carelessly approach him. |
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01/17/2011, 04:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/17/2011 05:12 PM by KumaOso.)
Post: #14
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I haven't played Smash in a long time so what I say may be inaccurate or not appropriate for Smash. I have never liked random outcomes in moves because I felt they took away control from the player for what he or she could do. This is why I propose these changes: Olimar: 1. Allow Olimar to select which Pikmin he wants to pluck by using Negative Edge for the picking. Negative Edge is a technique in some fighters where if you hold a button, you can do the directional input and then release the button for attack (ie. hold down light punch, do the quarter-circle forward motion, and release LP to do a Hadouken). This can also be used where you charge an attack by holding that button down such as Balrog's TAP attack. 2. When B is held down, Olimar stays in the plucking state. From there, the player can either choose a direction and release B for a particular Pikmin or immediately release B on neutral control for a Red Pikmin. Right+B gives you a blue, Down+B Purple, Left+B Yellow, Up+B White. A third option to do would be to press A which cancels the pluck which I imagine could be useful on exploiting IASA frames, and it could serve as edgeguarding bait. 3. For a character that centers around a particular move like Olimar, I think it's important that you should have total control of which Pikmin you want and not be held subject to the Heart of the Cards. Dedede: 1. Make the Waddle Dee Toss not random. 2. Make side+B throw Waddle Dee, down-side+B Waddle Doo, up-side+B Gordo. 3. Player has control over which toss he or she wants. Peach: 1. Use Negative Edge for Turnip. 2. Hold B down at any time, whether it be during an attack or whatever. Based on how long B is held, doing down+releasing B will pull out a turnip relative to how long the B button was held. Doing just down+B will yield a normal Turnip. 3. From the way I've seen people using her in both Melee and Brawl, Peach uses her normals way more than her specials with the only exception being the almighty Turnip. I can imagine that some people don't like the idea of fighting a Peach winning by pulling out a stitch face or a Bomb by pure luck. IIRC, Project M is aiming to let their be true customization for controls, so players can still play as normally by doing something like assigning R for specials. |
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01/17/2011, 05:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/17/2011 05:35 PM by Ruekaen.)
Post: #15
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@KumaOso While I can understand your point, minor deviation in randomness while a factor not only isn't a large one at some points, but can even prevent some exploitation of extreme bs 1. Olimar If you have complete choice of pikmin, this not only polarizes him, but makes him exceedingly bs. Any character that relies on an elements like fire or electricity have no chance (pikachu, mario, zelda, ect.). Also, the ability to always choose a purple pikmin is a little too good. Have you ever fought a kirby that had the olimar hat? Every pikmin hits like a purple with him like that. It is too ridiculous to get around. It not only becomes the gimp tool of the century, but it enforces camping to a large degree. Now imagine if kirby could jump and move while doing it? That's essentially what you've given olimar. 2. Dedede There was a good D3 idea that everyone liked awhile ago. W.Dees are side b tilts while W.Doos are side b smashes. For the gordos, they are still random for the same reason why consistent purple pikmin aren't a good idea. I'll give a link because I liked all those idea's JOE posted about D3 so hopefully they will be looked on again in this forum http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.ph...&page=1542 3. Peach Peach is a character that already has a rather set metagame. I believe with air glide tossing, she might have gotten her necessary buffs to stay with the melee top tiers. Knowing which turnip is going to pop out makes an unnecessary buff. Luigi lost some of the random in his side b, and now not only does he have a better chance to recover, but also a potent viable finisher. He needed this. Peach doesn't need to know when stitch is gonna pop. She's good as it is. Given you talk of Negative edge's, I'll use Guilty Gear as an example. Imagine if Faust's 236P could consistently pull meteors, or bombs. The slight random factor causes this to not be total bs. |
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01/17/2011, 05:34 PM
Post: #16
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Then why not balance the purple Pikmin and Gordos to where they aren't so overpowering? And going off of theory, if Olimar intends to fight against Mario and Zelda with a team of only red Pikmin, then doesn't he lose the grab range of the Blue, the damage of the White from a toss and its throwing range, the DAir spike of the Yellow, and the knockback of the Purple among other things? And against Pikachu, the damage output of the red. I don't know about you, but I look at Olimar as a open hand. Take into account what he can do with the next Pikmin and bait him so he can't get you with it. I guess Peach is fine as she is. Considering stitch and bomb's rarity, I guess I can live with it. |
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01/17/2011, 05:34 PM
Post: #17
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An idea I had for Pit's Up-B is something sort-of vaguely like Marth. Basically, he moves upwards a good bit and attacks, sort of like dolphin slash, but with a strong hitbox at the end and no sour spot hitboxes on the way up. Also, I really, really think Angel Ring needs a more Melee special in its place. It just seems a silly sort of thing to keep. |
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01/17/2011, 05:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/17/2011 05:46 PM by Ulevo.)
Post: #18
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Regarding Pit's up B, I believe the best alternative would be to replace Wings of Icarus with something akin to Charizards fly, where he twirls upwards. To give it properties unique to Pit, I'd suggest giving it a wind hitbox on startup. Possibly give its hitbox combo potential. I'd also suggest having it so Pit doesn't go in to special fall after using the move, and allow him to use any remaining jumps he still has. This way we can ensure Pit still has a very good recovery with flexible options without it being as good as standard Brawl. |
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01/17/2011, 05:56 PM
Post: #19
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Hmm, well, if we are talking to mess with the stats of pikmin in general, I suppose I could create a few to balance things. Also with the whole elemental weakness thing, considering olimars range and speed of his normal grab, I can live without the extra 2 inches blues give if i can neutralize more than half of the opponent's move set with a forward smash. Ever seen a pikachu fight an oli with all yellow? I have something for you, 9.5:0.5. First off, reduce some of the knockback of purples. Wouldn't be a great keepaway if people advanced on him if the knockback is low enough. Next, makes it so elemental pikmin only have resistance to that element, not inv. They won't get hitstun from it, and only get about a quarter of the damage. This makes so some matches like pika aren't only solved with one color. With this I can happily take away olimar's randomness, but still don't think necessary. As for the Gordo's...I don't honestly know. I don't know the ration for it's appearance, but some matches i never see it, some matches I'll see 4 in a row. I really put this on the same level as stitch face where i'd blame your friend's four leaf clover if this is the main thing finishing you off. Honestly, nerfing it to a standard projectile would do it a sort of injustice imo. |
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01/17/2011, 06:09 PM
Post: #20
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Oh, right. I had a unique idea for Olimar as well. You know how over time as you keep your Pikmin, their flowers begin to bloom on their head? What if we made it so that the Pikmin deal slightly more damage when their flowers are fully open? That would act as a small reward for keeping your Pikmin alive for a longer period of time. Doesn't have to be a big damage increase, maybe 1% or 2% per attack. |
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