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CANCELS AND HEAVY ARMOR
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02/24/2011, 01:18 PM
Post: #61
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What? ah... if you get punished for successfully grabing bowser, you're doing something wrong. And to be fair, having armor on the shell is a passive thing, but it adds strategy to when you want to be facing what direction. So it changes how he'll want to space ect. Has anyone said that the makesr of minus were considering getting rid of the constant armor anyways? I was under the impression that they were against it, but I'm recalling that incorrectly... |
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02/24/2011, 02:15 PM
Post: #62
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I hear the devteam mostly likes the armor, but we'll see what happens next release. And I'm exaggerating a little on the grabs, but for a lot of people, there's still not much of a follow up off grabs, so even having that single tool that always goes through doesn't make the matchup fair or fun. |
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02/24/2011, 11:10 PM
Post: #63
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There is nothing wrong with grabbing Bowser any more then any other character. But Bowser's fastest moves outrange almost all dashgrabs and outspeed all grabs they don't outrange. I really don't think he has a "grab weakness" with an ftilt like his. No need to work around it. Yes, the devteam, on all occasions I have seen, was pretty adamant on keeping the perma-armor. I'm hoping the large amount of forum goers not liking it will get them to reconsider, though. The reason I suggested that ALL moves should have some degree of heavy armor, including ones like his jabs, is because it's very close to the devteam's original idea but it enables normal combos to be used on Bowser. As I said, I really think it's really a win-win idea! |
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02/28/2011, 04:56 PM
Post: #64
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I for one do not like the armor, and i don't feel a lot of attachment for it from my fellow broomers.
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02/28/2011, 08:34 PM
Post: #65
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I feel like no one likes it. I think that the problem is that no one can think of a way to make Bowser distinct and interesting.
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03/01/2011, 04:37 AM
Post: #66
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I was kind of pretty sure I just did. I really think you guys should try it. If you just give every move he has heavy armor or super armor at some point in the move but remove all the passive armor he still plays just like he was, except he can actually be comboed! What is wrong with that idea? |
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03/01/2011, 09:02 AM
Post: #67
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I dunno. I'd like with that (definitely over what we have now), and my idea about low armor always, crouch gives higher armor stands. But it's all up to the devteam.
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03/04/2011, 03:49 AM
Post: #68
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Blargh, I can't find a way to spoilerblock anything, so the jab damage data at the end is just gonna sit there all imposing and pretty-like, cool? Cool. I really like the idea of restricting Bowser's 10% Armor to just his attacks -- starting as soon as you press the A or B button, ending when last active hitbox deactivates -- but I don't like, when at neutral, that you can still just start a combo on Bowser with your weakest and fastest hitboxes (see Melee for why that's sad for Bowser). So I'd like to give him some extra Armor on his in-control ground state to stop those fast+weak hitboxes from being the easy combo-starters that they otherwise are. He still needs to be vulnerable to everything when being juggled (so obviously no Armor during hitstun, tumbling, at neutral in the air, when knocked prone, and when tech-rolling) Ideally, I could say: when Bowser's in control on the ground, he will Armor every multi-hit attack (including jabs) except for the final hitbox. Then Bowser would have a few extra frames to react, making those multi-hit attacks become somewhat less safe versus Bowser when used at neutral than they are in other matchups. Multi-hits would work normally on Bowser when already shielding/being combo'd/recovering -- they'd just would just lose some reliability as "combo-starter from neutral" attacks. But I'm pretty sure there's no "part of a multi-hit attack, but not the final hit" flag on hitboxes! Meaning my ideal as described there is not realistic. I'd seen people on Smashboards float the idea that there was a "multi-hit" flag for hitboxes, and Snake's up-B ignored knockback from all "multi-hit=TRUE" hitboxes -- the fact that Charizard's b-air broke the "Cypher Armor" only on the second hitbox was what actually inspired me to research out how it worked. Though I'd call it 7% Armor now. Instead, I propose: • give Bowser 5% Armor on all his in-control ground states: stand, ground-attack end lag, crouching-before-jumping, actual crouch, crawl, walk, and run. • this 5% Armor would NOT apply during: everything aerial, shield, roll or tech-roll, spot dodge, landing from the air (including landing lag), lying prone, and ledge-hanging. • grabbing and forward-B gets the same 5% Armor at all times, until the moment that you are no longer holding them. So for a regular grab, you retain your grounded 5% Armor from the moment you press A while shielding or Z until the moment you actually deal knockback to your victim; for forward-B, you have 5% Armor from the moment you pressed forward-B, through the Flying Slam non-parabolic trajectory, and until the moment you land and deal knockback to your victim. • neutral-B does NOT get the regular 10% Armor for attacking -- instead have the aerial Fire Breath lack Armor entirely, and then gain the ground-based 5% Armor if you land (or if you started it from the ground). REASONING: I chose specifically 5% Armor based on how much damage the different characters can do with their jabs, and which hitbox they deal that damage with. Possibly 4% Armor or 6% Armor might be better though? If you went up to 6% Armor, I think Bowser's jab should be increased in damage so he can still break his own Armor with it. There are 18 characters (Toon Link and above), who can break 5% Armor with their jabs at all, given vBrawl damage. Of those 18, only 5 can break the 5% Armor on their very FIRST jab: Ganondorf, Dedede, tipper'd Marth, Wario, and Bowser. If we use 4% Armor instead, then 26 characters (Wolf and above) can break it with jabs; of those 26, a total of 11 characters break the Armor with their jab1: add Ike, high% Lucario, Snake, DK, Link, and Falco to the list above. NOTE: I know that CFalcon, DK, Ike, and the current build of Sonic all have increased-damage jabs in Minus (from the semi-defunct Brawl- Changelist). Too bad I'm lazy, so I took most of my damage figures from a vBrawl Damage Guide on gamefaqs! max Jab number dmg Character 1 2 3 4 10 Olimar: (3+2) 10 9 Ganondorf: 9 7 Ike: 4 5 7 7 Lucario high%: 4 3 7 7 Samus: 3 7 7 Snake: 4 3 7 6 CFalcon: 3 2 6 {2*hold} 6 Charizard: 3 4 6 6 Donkey Kong: 4 6 6 Dedede: 6 5 {2*hold} 6 Marth: 6 6 6 Wario: 6 6 6 Yoshi: 3 6 5 Bowser: 5 5 5 Link: 4 3 5 5 Luigi: 3 2 5 5 Pit: 3 3 5 5 Toon Link: 3 2 5 4 Falco: 4 2 {1*hold} 4 Ice Climbers: 3 4 4 Lucario 0%: 2 1 4 4 Lucas: 3 3 4 4 Mario: 3 2 4 4 Ness: 3 2 4 4 Squirtle: 3 2 4 4 Wolf: 3 2 4 3 Diddy Kong: 3 2 {2*hold} 3 Game & Watch: 3 {1*hold} 3 Ivysaur: 3 2 {1.5*hold} 3 Jigglypuff: 3 3 3 Kirby: 2 3 {2*hold} 3 Peach: 3 3 3 ROB: 3 3 3 Sheik: 3 3 {2*hold} 3 Sonic: 2 2 3 3 Zelda: (3+3+3) 3 Zero-Suit: 2 2 3 2 Fox: 2 2 {2*hold} 2 Meta Knight: {2*hold} 2 Pikachu: {2*hold} NOTES: • table is ordered by max single-hitbox damage, and alphabetically within ties • for jabs that have a sweetspot and sourspot hitboxes, only the sweetspot's damage is listed • "{2*hold}" means infinite-jabs with that hitbox. • Olimar's "(3+2)" and Zelda's "(3+3+3)" means that a single press of the button creates multiple hitboxes. ...and if Bowser still needs buffs, try giving him 20% Armor instead of 10% Armor for f-smash! Because it'd be awesome. A mirror Bowser's f-smash notably goes RIGHT through 20% Armor (it deals 10+23% damage, preventing dumb-looking "Squirtle+Wario exchange f-smashes and go exactly nowhere" situations); most of the rest of the cast needs a full-charge smash to break through, and about a quarter of the cast can't break 20% Armor at all. ...and bumping his Armor up to 10% for crouch/crawl also sounds like a pretty good time. /RtEB p.s. what up, I'm back. |
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03/04/2011, 01:38 PM
Post: #69
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Dude. What is this. Who are you. You just kind of popped out of nowhere. Then you solved all of my problems. That pretty much is the best idea that I have ever come across for any Bowser build ever and I agree with everything you said. Absolutely everything. I don't think that's ever happened before, and certainly not with so much stuff at once. Then you just don your hat and ride off into the sunset. What. The. Crap. ...I'm too in shock to respond properly. But suffice to say that you, sir, are completely awesome. |
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03/05/2011, 03:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 03/05/2011 03:43 AM by Jackpot.)
Post: #70
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That's an awesome idea, but I think we might want to still move it up to 6% or 7% because of buffed jabs. Also, slightly off topic, but will we be seeing a real changelist next version? The one we have right now hasn't been changed in forever and has about a third of the cast. |
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03/06/2011, 02:04 AM
Post: #71
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Glad you guys like the ground-control ~5% Armor! If you devs (out there, wherever you are, shining crazy diamonds) like it as well, it should also be possible to backload some jab damage for a few lower-damaging characters without changing their total damage: like if Sonic* should break the 5% Armor, change his jabs from (2,2,3) to (1,1,5). Or to prevent some characters from breaking the Armor on their initial jab, like Wario (6,6) to (4,8) and Dedede (6,5,{2*hold}) to (4,7,{2*hold}). (And possibly Bowser (5,5) to (4,6), though I do like that his claws always go through his own Armor.) Naturally knockback on the adjusted jabs would have to be compensated, etc. If there's widespread jab-damage buffs, I'd probably agree with Jackpot to pump it up to 6% Armor, maybe even 7%. /RtEB *again assuming vBrawl damage, but iirc 1.7 or 2.0 Sonic is already changed back to not being Mr. Ludicrous Damage. |
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03/06/2011, 02:58 AM
Post: #72
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(03/06/2011 02:04 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: if Sonic* should break the 5% Armor, change his jabs from (2,2,3) to (1,1,5). Or to prevent some characters from breaking the Armor on their initial jab, like Wario (6,6) to (4,8) and Dedede (6,5,{2*hold}) to (4,7,{2*hold}). How did you come up with that so fast? That was awesome, go apply for the backroom. Anyways, I'm actually pretty split on Bowser being able to break through his own armor. I'm pretty sure all of his moves can already, except for the flame, so if we make it so that it can't break through, that's just one more useless move for Bowser dittos (which is the only thing it'll really affect) If we don't, the 5% armor just becomes pretty useless against another Bowser. |
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03/06/2011, 08:07 PM
Post: #73
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I don't think we should care about Bowser's options against Bowser. I guarantee you, no matter how powerful or wimpy or stupid Bowser becomes, his matchup against Bowser will be 50:50. Joking aside, don't forget that the armor would be increased for all of his attacks (Bowser can't jab through another Bowser's jab, for instance) AND that the 5% armor is only for STANDING. Bowsers in the air, not attacking, would be affected by Fire Breath like everyone else. |
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03/06/2011, 10:44 PM
Post: #74
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Walking keeps the 5% and crouching gives more right?
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03/07/2011, 05:01 AM
Post: #75
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@Jackpot: I believe so, and support that, but it's not an attack, so it might not get the same treatment. Regardless, since dTilt is really the only thing Bowser's crouch is going to be used for, the armor on that attack may be enough. Though it's all theoretical right now. No playtesting yet, as far as I'm aware. |
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03/07/2011, 05:35 AM
Post: #76
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(03/06/2011 10:44 PM)Jackpot Wrote: Walking keeps the 5% and crouching gives more right? (03/07/2011 05:01 AM)Roager Wrote: @Jackpot: I believe so, and support that, but it's not an attack, so it might not get the same treatment. Regardless, since dTilt is really the only thing Bowser's crouch is going to be used for, the armor on that attack may be enough. Yep! My suggestion is exactly that: (03/04/2011 03:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: • give Bowser 5% Armor on all his in-control ground states: stand, ground-attack end lag, crouching-before-jumping, actual crouch, crawl, walk, and run. Brawl+ had crouching give Bowser (iirc) 7% Armor, so he could Armor through most or all get-up attacks from prone. I think that would be better than just relying on d-tilt because the d-tilt pushes him so far forward in Minus. Also down-B is a great followup to crouch-Armor'ing a get-up attack. Although playtesting* may reveal that the 10% Armor on d-tilt and down-B is indeed enough, and that 10% Armor on the crouch and crawl is overkill. /RtEB *my suggestions are certainly not playtested -- they are not even implemented, nor is there the slightest guarantee that they will be! |
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03/07/2011, 08:39 AM
Post: #77
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...I really don't think bowser is going to be getting a radical overhaul.
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03/08/2011, 04:43 AM
Post: #78
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That's a shame. The armor definitely needs some work, IMO.
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03/09/2011, 06:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 03/09/2011 06:39 PM by Thunda-Moo.)
Post: #79
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I defiantly think he needs a radical overhaul. If nothing else, one of you back room coders should try out the suggestion. I think it would be a lot more fun for everyone, not to mention the nearly universal support the idea has from the community so far.
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03/15/2011, 11:55 PM
Post: #80
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(03/07/2011 08:39 AM)The Cadet Wrote: ...I really don't think bowser is going to be getting a radical overhaul. He should get one, at least in terms of the armor. |
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