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samus suggesting for 1.7 or 2.0
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11/07/2010, 02:15 PM
(This post was last modified: 11/07/2010 02:16 PM by meshor.)
Post: #1
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samus is good in minus, although she's smilar to sonic (overpowered with no reason) samus sometimes be boring....(just attacking from far away or using smashes and B to kill. so i thing if you make her moves more cancel-able,it'll be un-bore-able .lol METROID OTHER M i think metroid other M is awesome ;she moves quickly and do combos to the monsters, so if we imagine her being in brawl minus(strong mobility and faster with cancels and some other stuff is the best) and other idea like making her Fsmash + pressing a button =throws a rocket and some stuff like that 
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11/07/2010, 02:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 11/07/2010 02:34 PM by Kink-Link5.)
Post: #2
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I'd be for F-smash IASA into side B on hit only, and a few other IASA's on hit. It would give her a good reason to actually approach the enemy instead of continuing to vbrawl it up. Oh and windmill of fury needs to cancel into windmill of fury into windmill of fury into windmill of fury into... |
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11/07/2010, 03:16 PM
Post: #3
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It feels like some of her moves are worthless. Up-Smash is just bad. I would rather have dtilt have low endlag and low knockback.
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11/07/2010, 04:15 PM
Post: #4
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I think if she just had a cancelable up-smash she wouldn't be boring.
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![[Image: 33xh5wy.png]](http://i43.tinypic.com/33xh5wy.png)
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11/08/2010, 01:25 AM
Post: #5
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Truth, Samus in Metroid: Other M was a great view of how Samus can fluidly mix up ranged and melee combat. Making f-smash on hit shoot a Super Missile is brilliant. What other melee-to-ranged special makes sense? I can easily see the following: Bombs: d-tilt, d-smash, dash attack Super Missile: f-smash Homing Missile: jab (second hit) Charge Shot: f-air, n-air Screw Attack: dash attack, u-smash To be clear, these are all just possibilities I could imagine working -- in the end, each special move should probably be linked from only one A-button attack each. So while bombs sound reasonable on any one of Dash Attack, d-tilt, and d-smash, I don't think I'd want two or all three of them to get the followup. Most of these could and should be IASAs*, and probably IASA on hit only**. *I'd prefer Homing Missile constrained to jab and Super Missile to f-smash because jab -> Super Missile sounds pretty weird. Normal "IASA to forward-B" would make both Missiles into the followups for both attacks. So that would take some extra coding, and my constraints should be scrapped if it proves prohibitive. **a fully charged f-smash should be able to shoot a Super Missile even without landing a hit. Obviously these all buff Samus's melee game, which may require some commensurate toning down of her projectile game. Note to anyone who hasn't heard: Samus (and ZSS too, I believe) is currently running up against filesize limits on her changes, so probably none of our suggestions are even possible unless/until StandardToaster can perform some GCT-based character injection wizardry. /RtEB |
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11/08/2010, 01:27 AM
Post: #6
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No, just no. That would be getting rid of many of her moves that are actually good. lol
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11/08/2010, 01:30 AM
Post: #7
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I can do character injections when I want to. :I But your suggestions would make samus soooooooooo overpowerd lol.
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11/08/2010, 02:11 AM
Post: #8
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Yeah probably overpowered, I don't claim have a great sense for Brawl Minus balance yet. I'm throwing out ideas that sound cool and hopefully feasible and seeing what sticks. (f-smash to super missile really would look pretty kickass.) |
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11/08/2010, 08:24 AM
Post: #9
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I'd go for aerial charge shot being bair interruptable.
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11/08/2010, 07:08 PM
(This post was last modified: 11/08/2010 07:10 PM by meshor.)
Post: #10
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(11/08/2010 01:30 AM)standardtoaster Wrote: I can do character injections when I want to. :I But your suggestions would make samus soooooooooo overpowerd lol. i didn't say all my ideas are perfect, but you can take some good stuff from it lol i think metroid other M is nice enough to Bminus and it acually metroid other Minus  (11/07/2010 02:33 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: I'd be for F-smash IASA into side B on hit only, and a few other IASA's on hit. It would give her a good reason to actually approach the enemy instead of continuing to vbrawl it up. sorry but whats IASA and whats sweetspot ,sourspot (sorry i joined b4 yesterday and my mother language is not english.) :'( |
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11/09/2010, 09:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 11/09/2010 09:58 PM by Kink-Link5.)
Post: #11
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IASA (Interruptable as-soon-as), or in technical terms Allow Interrupt is a function in the SSB series that allows a move's ending frames to be canceled with another action. Sometimes it can only be a few actions (Dash attack canceled U-smash, jump cancels, etc.), and sometimes IASA can be on hit only, making the move unsafe if missed but giving the player great followup options if it hits. F-smash IASA into Side-B on hit only would be a combination of the two restrictions. One great example of IASA is Marth's D-tilt, which is interruptable very soon into its end frames. Sweet and sour spots refer to specific hitboxes or hits within an attack. A sweet spot is a "Perfectly placed" version of the attack, while sour spots are the weaker hits that occur because of bad spacing or timing. Good examples of sweetspots: Falcon's fair Zelda's lightning kicks, which each have a set of sweetspots in minus Marth's Tipper hits Ness's bair Ness's bat tip Mario's fireball on his F-smash The first hitbox of any sex kick |
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11/10/2010, 08:00 PM
Post: #12
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(11/09/2010 09:55 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: IASA (Interruptable as-soon-as), or in technical terms Allow Interrupt is a function in the SSB series that allows a move's ending frames to be canceled with another action. Sometimes it can only be a few actions (Dash attack canceled U-smash, jump cancels, etc.), and sometimes IASA can be on hit only, making the move unsafe if missed but giving the player great followup options if it hits. F-smash IASA into Side-B on hit only would be a combination of the two restrictions.I see ... Thnx for the help |
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03/04/2011, 02:13 PM
Post: #13
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(11/08/2010 01:25 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Truth, Samus in Metroid: Other M was a great view of how Samus can fluidly mix up ranged and melee combat. Making f-smash on hit shoot a Super Missile is brilliant. What other melee-to-ranged special makes sense? I can easily see the following: Goodness gracious. Frankly, I think this is what Samus needed all along. This is great. In Brawl, Samus has always been a ranged keep-away character. This is the aspect of Samus Minus emphasized (and rightly so) but it has been shown to be too polarizing and frankly, too annoying. On one hand, people thought this needed to be toned down. On the other hand, people (like me) thought toning down her ranged and powering up her close combat would turn Samus into someone other then Samus. But this... this would combine both of those things. The missiles should be toned down in homing (and possibly damage) and her smashes should have their damage toned down, but she should totally be canceling her basic moves into the moves that make her SAMUS! Close combat-based missiles, charge shots, and bombs would emphasize her Samus-ness and her close-range game It would not be broken at all if consideration was taken into this possibility and move properties were adjusted so that, say, fsmash-missile is only a little stronger then classic fsmash. While we're making Samus into Metroid Samus as opposed to SSB Samus, I've always thought Samus needed faster fall speed. There is no precedence in any of her appearances that suggests floatyness of any sort. In fact, in all of her games she drops like Falco with jet thrusters. Increasing her fall speed would not only make her more Samus-like but it would make her more fluid and would be a significant buff to her ground game. |
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03/06/2011, 08:49 AM
Post: #14
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Now that I've played Brawl Minus against a number of actual real-live people, I feel a bit more qualified to weigh in on this a bit further! I agree with this: (03/04/2011 02:13 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: In Brawl, Samus has always been a ranged keep-away character. This is the aspect of Samus Minus emphasized (and rightly so) but it has been shown to be too polarizing and frankly, too annoying.Samus as a keep-away character is inherently polarizing, given the sheer breadth of ability displayed across the Brawl Minus cast. Some characters are at that happy medium with an exciting and fairly even matchup with her, but most fall into the other two categories: either they can reliably bypass her keep-away game, or they are nearly incapable of doing so. And that's no fun. Keep-away is an all-or-nothing kind of strategy. When it's your character's dominant strategy, then you have a generally all-or-nothing character. And all-or-nothing sucks whenever you have the "nothing" end of the stick. It needs to be easier for characters like Ganondorf to get inside her keep-away zone so they can actual fight her; it needs to be easier for her to fight those characters who can already bypass her keep-away zone. And if we constrain ourselves to preserving her current projectile keep-away game, then we would be required to sacrifice a large chunk of the Minus cast's variety in order to make all of Samus's matchups fall within the 40:60 to 60:40 range, if that's even possible. So yes, that means nerfing her projectile game and buffing her melee game to de-polarize her matchups. Nerfing comes specifically and especially to the Homing Missile. Homing Missile gets the nerf bat! • Increase their speed to about 1.4x current. • Halve their damage from 8% (in 1.6) to 4%. • Compensate knockback for the damage decrease. • Redirect the knockback to be about 50 or 60 degrees above horizontal, away from Samus. REASONING: You can't walk behind these faster missiles, or z-air from behind them, with the same kind of impunity. Reduced damage just makes them less dangerous by themselves, so you need to combo with them rather than just relying on massed Homing Missiles to the exclusion of the rest of your moveset. And the upwards knockback means they won't offer up such egregious GimpsForFree™ on certain characters and they're much better for comboing. (Homing Missile to d-air should be a much more satisfying kill than a bare Homing Missile, and way less frustrating for the victim.) z-air: While we're at it, reduce her z-air damage to 4% with 10% sweetspot. Also angle its knockback more vertically. Her z-air is an incredible move but it's too rewarding for how minimally risky it is. (And it's a little ridiculous that her current 10%/15% sweetspot z-air always breaks Bowser's current 10% Armor; a close-range 4% z-air would be ignored by Bowser's new 5% Armor, if that gets put in, while the 10% sweetspot would still break an attacking Bowser's 10% Armor, if he's far enough away that the sweetspot hits him.) That nerfs Samus's keep-away game severely. But she should still be formidable at range, just not overwhelmingly difficult to get close to. Short hop: make it lower! Her fullhop clears about 1.75x her own height, while her shorthop clears about 0.8x her height. Lower that to around 0.5x her own height. (Side note: this makes her z-air quite a bit more usable, which may make up for the damage nerf and then some.) Super (Ice) Missiles: Make it better! • First and foremost, LOWER THAT THING. Make the Super Missile appear low enough on Samus's model that it can hit even her shortest opponent while standing. Everyone wants this. Samus needs this. Let's do this. • Secondly, automatic Frozen on hit is awesome in concept but lacking in execution, as others have noted. Change the hitbox back to fire element, with enough base knockback and growth that it will kill by itself at ~150%. But when the Super Missile hits anything (including reflectors?) or dies on its own, then about half a second later, that location becomes an icy explosion the size of Snake's Grenade explosions. The ice splosion can deal minimal damage (even 1% would be fine) but it should cause automatic Frozen. • Shield damage: I want shielding a Super Missile to be dangerous! The direct hit should drain roughly a quarter of a full shield, and the subsequent ice burst should drain another quarter of a full shield. Charge Shot: adding her Dash Attack hitboxes to the first three quarters of the aerial full-charge recoil sounds awesome. So: projectiles are dealt with. Like I and others have said, I think buffing Samus's melee game by making (and letting) her mix in B moves would be the truest to her as a Smash character and as the star of the Metroid games. At least one A-button attack should cancel into each B-button attack. Also, I now think the cancels should be unconditional -- i.e. the cancel should not require a hit. And with if Homing Missiles are nerfed as I've described, I'm much more comfortable about allowing both Homing and Super missiles to be the same cancel (though it'd still look nicer to limit Homing Missile to jab2 only, and Super Missile to f-smash only, if that's feasible to code). In general, each cancel would happen immediately after the attack's last hitbox deactivates (f-air and u-smash would cancel after their third or fourth hitboxes deactivate). Bombs: d-tilt, d-smash, d-air Homing(/Super) Missile: jab2, f-air (Homing/)Super Missile: f-smash, f-air Charge Shot: f-air, n-air Screw Attack: u-smash jump: dash attack I think it would be a good idea to pare down that list so each B-button move has only a single A-button cancel, or two cancels if we're feeling generous. My preferred list is written in powder green. With these cancels, I don't think Samus actually even needs her grapplebeam grab to made all that much quicker, if at all. Super Missiles and their secondary ice burst deal huge shield damage; combine that with the ice burst's delay, and shielding is just overall more risky against Samus. And when she predicts the shield-grab, she can stuff it by cancel her shielded attack into one of her B-button attacks. /RtEB p.s. Again, thanks for the ideas-liking! |
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03/06/2011, 04:18 PM
Post: #15
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Ok, there's like 5 different threads I know I posted to, this one included, and nothing's there. I don't get it. Did I just type up a bunch of responses, and then not hit the post button? And where the hell did EffinBear come from? Out of the blue, he ninja-poofs in here, drops a bombshell of textwalls, and gives us all smash-boners in the process. I don't get it. Also: Quote:In general, each cancel would happen immediately after the attack's last hitbox deactivates (f-air and u-smash would cancel after their third or fourth hitboxes deactivate).So by "last hitbox deactivate" you mean that it cannot be canceled DURING the hit, as Marth's Shield Breaker is. Only killing the endlag? |
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03/06/2011, 06:53 PM
Post: #16
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(03/06/2011 04:18 PM)Roager Wrote: So by "last hitbox deactivate" you mean that it cannot be canceled DURING the hit, as Marth's Shield Breaker is. Only killing the endlag?Yep, "cancel = skipping just the endlag of each listed move" is exactly what I mean. Marth's pre-hitbox cancel on aerial Shield Breaker is awesome because it gives him horizontal momentum like woah, but Samus's moves and playstyle aren't geared towards that kind of hypermobility. So for d-tilt -> Bomb, Samus would stick out her gun-arm for the surprising hotfoot, and the hitbox happens no matter what; when the hitbox ends and Samus starts retracting her gun-arm, THEN she cancels with an immediate Morph Ball to plant a Bomb. Likewise the f-smash -> Missile, but replace "surprise hotfoot" with "forcible cranial realignment", and the post-hitbox cancel lets her immediately bring a Missile to the knife fight. The f-air and the u-smash are a special case because they're both multi-hit attacks that consist of five distinct energy flares. My suggested cancels would interrupt the relevant move only after the first three/four flares have had their hitboxes deactivate, preempting only the final two/one flares. (The actual time-placement of the cancel gives us a tradeoff that we can fine-tune: cancel after the third flare = less damage + quicker recovery, vs cancel after the fourth = more damage + more time committed.) I'm actually a little leery of letting f-air have any special cancels, because with correct positioning, its negligible landing lag makes it effectively cancel to any ground move already. I could also be persuaded that there should be no special cancels to Charge Shot at all. Thoughts? /RtEB also, thanks! |
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03/06/2011, 07:55 PM
Post: #17
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(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: I agree with this:(03/04/2011 02:13 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: In Brawl, Samus has always been a ranged keep-away character. This is the aspect of Samus Minus emphasized (and rightly so) but it has been shown to be too polarizing and frankly, too annoying. Aw, thanks, bro. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Homing Missile gets the nerf bat! I wouldn't knockback compensate unless you're giving it vacuum knockback. Also, this may not be enough to make homing missiles a single-move super-spamming force: with increased speed, Samus could time the shots differently and use them to punish dodges, which would be very scary. And while not semi-spiking is awesome, a speed boost would really make them a lot scarier for recovery gimping because she can start screwing you up from really far away and you'll have a lot less time to react. I suppose they'll be a little less spammable because they can't turn around and they'd get to the other side of your opponent really fast, but she could just fire them at larger intervals and use her other stuff more. Basically, you might need differently-shaped nerf stick, but not necessarily a bigger one. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Short hop: make it lower! Her fullhop clears about 1.75x her own height, while her shorthop clears about 0.8x her height. Lower that to around 0.5x her own height. (Side note: this makes her z-air quite a bit more usable, which may make up for the damage nerf and then some.) Hyes! (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Super (Ice) Missiles: Make it better! Lower it a little, but it shouldn't be too low. It should hit standing squirtle, but I don't know about running squirtle. It should NOT hit crouching/crawling squirtle, Snake, Zero Suit Samus, weegee, and other crawls of similar heights. Especially if we go with the diffusion missile. Idea. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: • Secondly, automatic Frozen on hit is awesome in concept but lacking in execution, as others have noted. Change the hitbox back to fire element, with enough base knockback and growth that it will kill by itself at ~150%. But when the Super Missile hits anything (including reflectors?) or dies on its own, then about half a second later, that location becomes an icy explosion the size of Snake's Grenade explosions. The ice splosion can deal minimal damage (even 1% would be fine) but it should cause automatic Frozen. Um. I don't know how I feel about this. Diffusion Missile from Fusion, eh? I was never a fan of ice missiles as a concept (that doesn't make any sense!) or weapon (Why are my missiles bouncing off frozen enemies? That's ridiculous! Why can't I just have the ice beam?). I didn't like it in fusion, Prime 3, or in Minus. I'd really rather the missiles just blew stuff up. If it is liked by everyone else, though, here's my two cents: it certainly shouldn't beat reflectors. That's just silly. Half a second is a really long time in a fight, so I think it's a bit too much. Finally, I don't think the iceplosion should come out if shielded. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: • Shield damage: I want shielding a Super Missile to be dangerous! The direct hit should drain roughly a quarter of a full shield, and the subsequent ice burst should drain another quarter of a full shield. Shielding a super missile should bloody well be dangerous! But it should be dangerous in terms of damage, not in terms of Samus getting a free approach or set-up period on you. The super-level sheildstun plus the icesplosion sheildstun would be annoying and too good. Plus, you couldn't drop your shield after the first hit unless you want to be frozen. The icesplosion should not come out on shield, the super missile should just deal 50% max shield damage and then disappear like ROB's gyro before the icesplosion (if it exists). (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Charge Shot: adding her Dash Attack hitboxes to the first three quarters of the aerial full-charge recoil sounds awesome.Some sort of hitbox on the air recoil would be sweet. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: In general, each cancel would happen immediately after the attack's last hitbox deactivates (f-air and u-smash would cancel after their third or fourth hitboxes deactivate).Depends. I would like to see fsmash true combo into a super missile. Otherwise it's pretty pointless. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: Bombs: d-tilt, d-smash, d-airI still firmly hold that dash attack should not cancel into jump under any circumstances. Firstly, that move is the Shinespark, and the Shinespark can't be canceled in the games. It kills things dead. Also, dash attack into jump would be really stupid good. A move that kills is not any better then a move that combos into bair (and therefore kills) or any damage-racking or combo-starting move. But really, the attack should be more shinesparky. seriously. (03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: With these cancels, I don't think Samus actually even needs her grapplebeam grab to made all that much quicker, if at all. She may not need it, but everybody wants it. /RtEB [/quote] You have so many ideas. It takes forever to respond to you! |
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03/07/2011, 09:14 AM
Post: #18
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Homing Missiles: (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote:Fair enough! I'm decently flexible on the shape of the Homing Missile's nerf stick. Adding a cooldown for Homing Missiles only? Shade_'s suggestion of exploding an active Homing Missile when you fire a new one? A less harsh restriction that explodes your oldest Homing Missile when you try to fire a third one? Just make their homing worse?(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote:I wouldn't knockback compensate unless you're giving it vacuum knockback. Also, this may not be enough to make homing missiles a single-move super-spamming force: with increased speed, Samus could time the shots differently and use them to punish dodges, which would be very scary. And while not semi-spiking is awesome, a speed boost would really make them a lot scarier for recovery gimping because she can start screwing you up from really far away and you'll have a lot less time to react. I suppose they'll be a little less spammable because they can't turn around and they'd get to the other side of your opponent really fast, but she could just fire them at larger intervals and use her other stuff more. Basically, you might need differently-shaped nerf stick, but not necessarily a bigger one. Super Missiles: Agreed re: lowering Super Missile firing height. I specified "...while standing" but could have been clearer that low crouches/crawls SHOULD duck under even the lowered trajectory. (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote:(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote:Um. I don't know how I feel about this. Diffusion Missile from Fusion, eh? I was never a fan of ice missiles as a concept (that doesn't make any sense!) or weapon (Why are my missiles bouncing off frozen enemies? That's ridiculous! Why can't I just have the ice beam?). I didn't like it in fusion, Prime 3, or in Minus. I'd really rather the missiles just blew stuff up. If it is liked by everyone else, though, here's my two cents: it certainly shouldn't beat reflectors. That's just silly. Half a second is a really long time in a fight, so I think it's a bit too much. Finally, I don't think the iceplosion should come out if shielded. (aside: inspiration for Ice Missiles vs Diffusion Missiles) Considering the lifespan of Samus's Bombs (70 frames = 1.167 seconds) and Snake's Grenades (180 frames = 3 seconds), I think my suggested ice burst delay landed in an uncomfortable middle ground: 30 frames = 0.5 seconds is too long to combo, but too short for the ice burst to enter into your opponent's decision process. I probably want to bump the ice burst's delay up to around 60 frames -- possibly even longer, after taking into account the duration of the 25%-drain's shieldstun. The lengthened delay before the ice burst means the initial hit will never combo into the ice burst by itself, so it is vital for the Ice Missile to create the ice burst when shielded. But since the Ice Missile's initial hitbox is actually fire-element, it will always "just blow stuff up", including pre-frozen opponents! (Yeah, Missiles bouncing off frozen enemies bugged me too.) Hmm, I DID say precisely "I want shielding a Super Missile to be dangerous!"... let me qualify that statement. More accurately, let me re-orient my argument entirely: my reasoning and justification for these Ice Missiles is a combination of shield pressure and stage control. Shield Pressure: if you can credibly threaten a grab/shieldstab/shieldbreak, that's shield pressure. The single-hit 50%-drain Super Missile does threaten a shieldbreak more directly, but you can't grab while you're still recovering from firing a Super Missile. But if your opponent shields the 25%-drain Ice Missile impact, the subsequent 25%-drain ice burst theatens a shieldbreak just as much, and the shieldstun opens them up for a grab or a shieldstab; shieldbreak+grab and shieldbreak+shieldstab are both more pressure than shieldbreak alone. Furthermore, since the Ice Missile's 25%-drain ice burst CAN be avoided, your opponents will WANT to avoid it! See your post in the "Snake 2.0" topic for this argument as applied to passing Snake's sticky C4 ;) A 50%-drain single hit can be powershielded much more easily than two 25%-drain hits, especially since you will be tossing hitboxes in their face in the meantime. Which nicely leads into... Stage Control: so it's risky to shield near an 25%-drain ice burst. If you're throwing hitboxes all around, they're not going to be able to powershield the ice burst -- you will either force them to shield early (disrupting their powershield timing to make them take the 25%-drain), or you will connect directly and start a combo (which may include the ice burst itself). And it's also bad to be hit by that freezes-on-hit ice burst, so nearby counterattacks are risky. Thus stage control! Not Overpowered: there's a full 1 second delay (possibly more) after shielding the Ice Missile before the ice burst happens, giving your opponent a chance to get out of the way. If they decide to stick around and DO land a good attack on you before eating the ice burst, they certainly won't be killed by 1% damage + freezing alone. Being frozen prevents them from comboing you after landing their hit, but you can't start a combo on their frozen self either when you're across the stage. This leaves the ice burst, and the Ice Missile in general, as neither too annoying nor too good. (I hope!) (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote:I think at certain low percent ranges (and DI), f-smash will combo into the Ice Missile cancel. I don't think it needs to be a true combo at all percents, though we may disagree there.(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: In general, each cancel would happen immediately after the attack's last hitbox deactivates (f-air and u-smash would cancel after their third or fourth hitboxes deactivate).Depends. I would like to see fsmash true combo into a super missile. Otherwise it's pretty pointless. I'd like to take the f-smash cancel a bit further, because it's a great example of how the Ice Missile's extra shield pressure and stage control really comes into play: • Your f-smash is shielded, you cancel to Ice Missile and cut that shield by a cool 25%-drain. I think their shieldstun will turn out comparable to the endlag of the Ice Missile, so you end up at neutral, they're shielding nearby, and there's an ice burst hanging over their head. Pretty decent! • Of course if they rolled behind you instead of shielding your f-smash, and you cancel into a whiffed Ice Missile, that's pretty bad. Your punishment for being read is the free combo they now get. • Ideally the f-smash + Missile being better vs shield than bare f-smash is balanced by f-smash + Missile being worse vs roll. QUESTION: I've been assuming that f-smashing leftwards will force the Missile to be fired leftwards as well, but it occurred to me this might not be the case: can you cancel the f-smash into an opposite-direction Missile? (I think it'd look weird so my instinct is to constrain the Missile to the same direction as the f-smash -- like a special subaction(?) that says "hold B during f-smash = perform Ice Missile in same direction"?) Shinespark: (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote:The Shinespark totally CAN be canceled! ...in Super Metroid... when you drop below 30 total energy... which is only feasibly useful for a TAS'er. BUT STILL! :P(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote:I still firmly hold that dash attack should not cancel into jump under any circumstances. Firstly, that move is the Shinespark, and the Shinespark can't be canceled in the games. It kills things dead. Also, dash attack into jump would be really stupid good. A move that kills is not any better then a move that combos into bair (and therefore kills) or any damage-racking or combo-starting move. But really, the attack should be more shinesparky. seriously. Ganon's had a vertically-killing dash attack since vBrawl and it's not overwhelming (even with Minus adding Armor to it). I think I would be down for making Samus's dash attack into a vertical killer, while leaving it with its current drawbacks (a.k.a. no jumpcanceling). Killing somewhere around 110% or 120%? The more I think about making the dash attack more Shinesparky, the more I like it. I'm on board! Grab: (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote:Truth. A sped-up grab, even just a little bit sped up, would be wonderful.(03/06/2011 08:49 AM)theEffinBear Wrote: With these cancels, I don't think Samus actually even needs her grapplebeam grab to made all that much quicker, if at all.She may not need it, but everybody wants it. The End: (03/06/2011 07:55 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: You have so many ideas. It takes forever to respond to you!Jeepers, inorite? We may want to break some of the discussion out into some new topics just to keep track of it all. /RtEB |
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03/10/2011, 08:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 03/10/2011 08:39 PM by Thunda-Moo.)
Post: #19
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Indeed, sir. You make a convincing point on the issue of the ice missiles. I've always been a fan of stage control anyway, I suppose. My initial worry was about the sheildstun: The super missile gives a ton of it, and freezeboxes generally give a ton of it too. I was afraid that, in conjunction, they would allow Samus absolute absurd shield pressure because of the damage AND the stun allowing her to threaten a break AND a dash-grab while the opponent was stunned. I suppose this can be worked around, though. I'm just really not a big fan of ice missiles. Speaking of my Snake topic, I'd enjoy a bit of discussion going on that front, as well... Shade_'s suggestion sounds good to me. I'd personally give her one HM with the HM's current properties, minus the semi-spike. This way, Samus doesn't get a wall of missiles to make people cry about, but if someone passes her missile it's no longer "too bad, so sad" for her. Plus, she can detonate it at will and reposition it. It might be cool if the explosion lingered for a half second or so, too... Huzzah for the shinespark! And my, my do you know your Metriod. Most people don't know what the shinespark is, let alone that it cancels when you're under 30 hit points. It's been wonderful discussing with you, as always. |
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03/19/2011, 05:36 AM
Post: #20
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Regarding bomb-canceled downwards attacks, shinespark dash attack, d-smash to up-B cancel, and even friggin ICE MISSILES: I have made truly marvellous progress on these items, which this forum post is too narrow to contain. /RtEB |
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