1. SQUIRTLE: feels pretty great
   
   trap box suggestion, extra water stuff

   • would it be possible to add a trap box somewhere? i.e. a trap box or something similar in kind to Charizard's Stealth Rock at perhaps the top of his up-B, if he makes it the whole way? mb neutral-B's no-charge icy breath if you can make it last until someone hits it, mb water hitboxes if their lifetime can be extended?
   • possibly add a few Water Gun projectiles to the end of some of his other water moves (preferably d-smash and n-air, possibly u-smash and neutral-B)? this would slightly increase the safety of those moves on sourspot, which sometimes feel less safe than a whiff
2. IVYSAUR: feels decent
   
   powder bursts, trap box suggestion

   • gigantic powder bursts are fun
   • unfortunately a sourspot d-air hit usually feels less safe than an entirely whiffed d-air; no guarantee that the sourspot will apply the sleep effect, so that 2% damage hit with next-to-no knockback but still interrupts usually feels counterproductive
   • would it be possible to add a trap box like Charizard's Stealth Rock, perhaps to Bullet Seed? (each Bullet Seed attempts to create a trap box, but each trap box disappears when a new Bullet Seed is fired, so a maximum of one is present at a time, and only if you do NOT hit someone with the last Bullet Seed fired)
3. CHARIZARD: Feels great, especially Stealth Rock.
   • can his glide start quicker and be more maneuverable?

(11/02/2010 03:23 AM)theEffinBear Wrote:  So I've started checking out Brawl Minus recently, and it's been a blast! I thought I'd give some impressions and suggestions based on my play experiences so far ("----" meaning I haven't played with or against a character enough to give feedback). Overall I really like what has been done.

I sblock'd a lot of my bulkier suggestions for easier reading. If the individual character boards would work better, I can start new topics there or respond to already-existing topics with some of this stuff.

BOWSER: apparently being overhauled I think?

Armor stuff, making it less all-or-nothing

• remove Bowser's blanket 10% Heavy Armor. (Though perhaps leaving it on a few moves? like down-B and possibly f-smash?)
• "Shell armor": on any move where Bowser retreats into his shell (namely u-throw, d-smash, d-air, n-air, and up-B), change his shell's hurtboxes to become "detached" like Wario's Bike while he's riding it, or Snake's Cypher while he's rising with it; Bowser's soft underbelly would still have a fairly thin normal hitbox. Any attack that hits the shell hurtboxes will still cause hitlag, but deal Bowser no damage and no knockback; a grab hitbox will cause Bowser to be grabbed normally, even if it hits only the shell hurtboxes. If the hitbox persists beyond hitting the shell, it could still reach Bowser's actual vulnerable hurtboxes to damage him normally.
In other words, place a "Super Armor that also negates damage" property on Bowser's shell during the moves that he withdraws fully into his shell.
(Some ramifications: non-persistent projectiles will be absorbed by Bowser's shell during these moves, so his d-air would be able to travel straight down and through a stream of Bullet Seeds with no ill effects; Mario's Fireballs, Pikachu's aerial Thunderjolt, and Sonic's aerial Spring would almost always be negated when they dropped onto Bowser's Whirling Fortress or d-smash. Persistent projectiles like Ivysaur's Razor Leaf and ROB's Robo Beam, on the other hand, would easily persist through the shell hurtboxes to damage Bowser himself. Disjointed melee hitboxes would act similarly to persistent projectiles.)
(I'm not the first to suggest this, see Linkshot's post and Eldiran's response. If "bone-specific invincibility" means hurtbox-specific respawn invincibility where there's still hitlag, that might be what I'm looking for.)
• ALTERNATIVELY, keep Bowser's 10% Heavy Armor only on those moves where he retracts fully inside his shell?
• is it possible to move the hurtboxes of a Flying Slam victim further down so the victim always dies first in a Bowsercide?

No, just no. The heavy armour is what makes bowser-, bowser-. If we were to remove it, he would have to get COMPLETELY redone to deal with the rest of the cast and not be OP. Making the HA only on his shell is still bad, because then that would make him weaker imo. Currently, bowser is receiving some buffs though.

CAPTAIN FALCON: great, would prefer slightly more friction but not a big deal

The momentum and friction is what allows him to continue his combos more.

DIDDY KONG: replacement of ledge and prone get-up attacks with d-smash is really interesting (more powerful but lacking invincibility), don't know enough otherwise

Currently getting some buffs for fighting and recovery.

GANONDORF: ahaha YES, and I'm looking forward to the Neutral-B changes
• when you've successfully grabbed someone with an aerial forward-B, is it possible to move their hurtboxes further down so they always die first in a Ganoncide?

Yes, it is possible to move the person you are grabbing further below you in the animation. However, it would look silly and unprofessional to have the person be away from you during that grab. It is meant to be a risk/reward and hope that that person dies before you do.

KIRBY: apparently being overhauled?

Copy suggestions

• I like the idea of Copy changing more of Kirby's moveset than just the neutral-B, as Kappy's topic suggests, but creating an entire new moveset for each Copy power feels excessive (and would be a nightmare to balance, especially in doubles). I'd prefer to see up-B and/or forward-B getting some (small-ish) bonuses based on his Copy power (agreeing with Oro!?'s response). For example, some up-B combinations...

• Copied Ike: either gain Super Armor from the beginning of the attack until Kirby starts rising, or heal Kirby by a percent or two when the Final Cutter projectile damages an opponent.
• Copied King Dedede: create Dedede's stars on landing.
• Copied Link and Toon Link: spin while rising in a low-strength Spin Attack with the Final Cutter blade. Deal up to 5% extra damage (5 hitboxes, 1% per hitbox) with next to no knockback each so it doesn't interfere with the normal Final Cutter hitboxes.
• Copied Lucas or Ness: create a PK Thunder 2 explosion directly on Kirby's body when landing.
• Copied Bowser, Donkey Kong, Falco, Fox, Mario, Squirtle, Charizard, Samus, Wario, Wolf: like (Toon) Link, but don't spin the Final Cutter blade, just add about 5 hitboxes that deal 1% damage each with minimal knockback while Kirby's rising. Change the element when it makes sense (Falco/Fox/Charizard would be fire element, Mario could be coin element, Samus would be electric element).

NOTE: if the new Final Cutter option shown here is actually added in, the no-jump Final Cutter probably should not count as "landing" for the purposes of my suggestions.
• Forward-B changes are less obvious -- most up-B's act as extra jumps, so placing an iconic effect from another character's up-B onto Final Cutter is pretty intuitive, whereas basically no forward-B's besides Kirby's Hammer act like a second f-smash that can also be done in the air. But you could add other elements (fire for Bowser/Charizard/etc, electric for Pikachu/Ness?/Lucas?, ice for Ice Climbers, and so on) onto the hitbox or increase the hitbox sizes pretty easily.

Not sure if any of these kirby hat changes are able to be made. Kirby is getting redone btw.

LINK:
• u-smash hits don't auto-link especially well
• an up-B that actually lets Link recover? SHEER MADNESS (a.k.a. thank you)

arrow stuff

• full-charge arrows should not shoot so high above horizontal (echoing Lootic's post here, among others).
• able to shield-cancel or jump-cancel a fully charged arrow? (may need to reduce the knockback of arrows to compensate for this buff)
• it would be great if you could choose which type of arrow to shoot by holding down/forwards/back/up, with non-elemental arrows at neutral; if so, would probably need to make a cooldown for elemental arrows
• fire arrows might give you 3 seconds of cooldown, ice might give 5, stunner and bomb might give 10 or 15 seconds each -- substitute different cooldown values if I've misjudged how powerful the elemental arrows are. Ideally there would also be a graphical blinking effect on Link during the cooldown.
• during the cooldown, your neutral-B cannot shoot elemental arrows.
• ALTERNATIVELY: during the cooldown, your neutral-B is entirely disabled.
• SECOND ALTERNATIVE: during the cooldown, all your B-moves are disabled. (provides a significant drawback to using the excellent elemental arrows.)

hover boots would be amazing

• dash attacking and rolling are still bounded by the ledge; if you are pushed off a ledge while shielding, or you slide off a ledge during landing lag, you just start falling, not hovering.
• if you run or walk off an edge, you hover for 1 second (60 frames) at the same height as the ledge itself. While hovering, you count as standing on a reduced-friction drop-through platform: you can continue to walk or run around, you can jump like normal (as a regular grounded jump), use your A-moves and B-moves, crouch, or end the hover early by hitting smash-down to drop through the drop-through imaginary platform.
• you CANNOT shield or grab while hovering: pressing "shield" causes you to start an airdodge while falling, and "grab" (shield+attack) causes you to perform the Clawshot z-air.
• if you're performing an A-button attack when your hovering time would normally run out, you continue hovering until the frame you regain control with normal IASA frames, at which point you start falling (so you can finish the second hit of the f-smash, or the remainder of your AAA jab combo).
• otherwise, you immediately become aerial (and falling) when the hover duration runs out. If you're in the middle of a B-move, you continue performing the B-move except that you're now falling -- using Spin Attack after hovering way off the edge would be a bad idea.
• even though you count as standing on the ground for the purposes of (most of) your own moves, you count as aerial when someone else's hitboxes interact with you: while hovering, you're immune to DK's down-B and Charizard's d-smash, but you will plummet straight downwards when spiked.

I know others have also suggested Hover Boots, like in Lootic's topic here, but this is how I would implement them.

Thank you for those link suggestions. Hover boots are not possible, or if they are it is not worth coding such a thing just for you to go offstage and do something like an upsmash. Use an aerial, they are meant to hit people in the air.

MARIO: feels pretty nice

FLUDD backflip?

• any possibility of converting his extra jumping capabilities to an aerial down-B? like his Mario Sunshine backflip that sprays a large, widespread burst of water: create all the water projectiles at the same time but different angles, and a more fully charged aerial FLUDD means a larger backflip (uncharged backflip might be the equivalent of half of his airjump; a full-charge backflip might be double his airjump).

Probably able to be coded, although in my opinion he doesn't need this. He already has a boosted recovery and is able to use two upBs in a row.

OLIMAR: I understand he's getting a major revamp, yes?

Yes, he is currently being redone by TSON.

POKÉMON TRAINER:
• why is there still stamina? (noticed it in training mode, didn't check if it's actually there in normal multiplayer)
• it would be fantastic if someone could fix vanilla Brawl's bug of carrying over input buffer while KO'd to the next stock[/list]

There is the no stamina code in the codeset. IIRC stamina still works in training mode. In versus mode, the pokemon should have no stamina and be able to fight and not reduce their stamina.

1. SQUIRTLE: feels pretty great
   
   trap box suggestion, extra water stuff

   • would it be possible to add a trap box somewhere? i.e. a trap box or something similar in kind to Charizard's Stealth Rock at perhaps the top of his up-B, if he makes it the whole way? mb neutral-B's no-charge icy breath if you can make it last until someone hits it, mb water hitboxes if their lifetime can be extended?
   • possibly add a few Water Gun projectiles to the end of some of his other water moves (preferably d-smash and n-air, possibly u-smash and neutral-B)? this would slightly increase the safety of those moves on sourspot, which sometimes feel less safe than a whiff
   
   Squirtle will be receiving some buffs, thank you for these ideas.
2. IVYSAUR: feels decent
   
   powder bursts, trap box suggestion

   • gigantic powder bursts are fun
   • unfortunately a sourspot d-air hit usually feels less safe than an entirely whiffed d-air; no guarantee that the sourspot will apply the sleep effect, so that 2% damage hit with next-to-no knockback but still interrupts usually feels counterproductive
   • would it be possible to add a trap box like Charizard's Stealth Rock, perhaps to Bullet Seed? (each Bullet Seed attempts to create a trap box, but each trap box disappears when a new Bullet Seed is fired, so a maximum of one is present at a time, and only if you do NOT hit someone with the last Bullet Seed fired)
   
   Ivysaur will most likely be receiving some buffs, thank you for these suggestions.
3. CHARIZARD: Feels great, especially Stealth Rock.
   • can his glide start quicker and be more maneuverable?

It is possible to make the glide start faster, and I am sure it is possible to make it more maneuverable, but this slow glide start and "less mobility" helps balance him. Keep in mind that currently most or all his moves kill under 100%.

SAMUS:

assorted thoughts

• love the change to Super Missiles
• Homing Missiles are great though they home for too long (I think I've heard that's getting changed)
• love the d-smash
• can Bombs come out faster or be more useful?
• are her non-special attacks getting buffed?
• can her roll be made into something non-terrible?

Unfortunately, Samus is at her filesize limit. To add things to her, we need to have a character injection in the GCT. The only person on the brawl minus team that is able to make character injections is StandardToaster, but he is really busy with other things and it may be a while before he is able to do character injections.

SNAKE:

miscellaneous thoughts

• tone down the ridiculous hitlag (which I've heard is planned)
• putting explosions EVERYWHERE is great fun, seems good
• increase the lifetime of an on-stage C4?

Snake is currently being redone.

SONIC: I think he's being overhauled, if the preview video is any indication

Yes, sonic is being redone.

WARIO: being overhauled? Wario Bike being able to drive on the air like it's ground is a nice touch

Yes, wario is being redone.

WOLF: feels good with some rough edges

sundry thoughts

• can you remove the helplessness on the end of a non-canceled forward-b?
• I've heard that the ridiculous air time that Wolf gets with "foward-B, u-air, repeat" is being reduced -- if I've heard correctly good
• his f-smash often connects only with the fixed-knockback setup hit, needs to auto-link better

Forgetting to cancel your sideB helps balance him because it is your fault for not remembering to cancel it, thus causeing you to potentially lose your stock. His stalling has been fixed. Fsmash is currently being looked into for a fix.

YOSHI: seems fairly beastly, nice

Yoshi is being redone. I suggest you watch this video to see how he is so far. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zanbC9-B7do

ZELDA: ghost hitboxes are amazing, and definitely liking the previews and ideas I've seen for adding them to her moves that are currently lacking the ghost hitboxes. Love it.

Currently getting some buffs.

(11/03/2010 01:51 PM)ShiningSeoul Wrote:  An idea that came up during play: when someone picks random for their character, they spawn as a random character each time and/or have one of their taunts manually switch them to a random character.

(11/02/2010 10:50 AM)Monk Wrote:  BOWSER: No, just no. The heavy armour is what makes bowser-, bowser-. If we were to remove it, he would have to get COMPLETELY redone to deal with the rest of the cast and not be OP. Making the HA only on his shell is still bad, because then that would make him weaker imo. Currently, bowser is receiving some buffs though.
K, I had the (apparently mistaken) impression that Bowser was getting overhauled and his blanket 10% heavy armor was getting looked at, or was already on the chopping block. No worries then.

GANONDORF: Yes, it is possible to move the person you are grabbing further below you in the animation. However, it would look silly and unprofessional to have the person be away from you during that grab. It is meant to be a risk/reward and hope that that person dies before you do.
Oh definitely agreed that placing them too far away would look silly/unprofessional. But I don't mean to place the Murder Choke victim way below GDorf, only far enough down that they are guaranteed to die from the bottom blast zone at least one frame before GDorf himself -- equivalently (I think) move the hurtboxes on Ganondorf's legs during a successful aerial Murder Choke to be slightly higher. Alternatively, move the victim's hurtboxes slightly higher so that Ganon and the victim are always guaranteed to die at exactly the same frame, so final stock Ganoncide -> Sudden Death. Or move Ganon's hurtboxes down and the victim's up, so a final stock Ganoncide is a guaranteed loss for Ganon.
I'd prefer any of those changes over the current situation, just to remove the uncertainty of a reward for a successful final stock Ganoncide. (And identical to my reasoning for Bowsercide victim-hitbox-changes, even Bowserciding is a guaranteed win and Ganonciding is a guaranteed loss.)

LINK: Thank you for those link suggestions. Hover boots are not possible, or if they are it is not worth coding such a thing just for you to go offstage and do something like an upsmash. Use an aerial, they are meant to hit people in the air.
I figured hover boots were possible due to things like B- Wario's Bike and, at least in vBrawl, Sonic's hovering spindash-off-a-sloped-platform-edge glitch; though those are both special moves, which may make a lot more of a difference than I know. In my idealized imagination of hover boots, they would be a unique gameplay-changing trick for Link, and I believe it's still an awesome (if impractical) idea. Sad day!

SAMUS: Unfortunately, Samus is at her filesize limit. To add things to her, we need to have a character injection in the GCT. The only person on the brawl minus team that is able to make character injections is StandardToaster, but he is really busy with other things and it may be a while before he is able to do character injections.
:(   curse you, filesize limits

WOLF: Forgetting to cancel your sideB helps balance him because it is your fault for not remembering to cancel it, thus causeing you to potentially lose your stock. His stalling has been fixed. Fsmash is currently being looked into for a fix.
Nice, re: stalling and f-smash. It bothers me a little that Wolf either cancels his forward-B into an aerial and remains in control, or fails to attack and so enters helplessness (or SpecialFall, or whatever). Not something I'd really fight over, but just feels weird.

(11/04/2010 09:39 AM)Monk Wrote:  Jab resets is a code that was made for PM. We cannot just take the code from them.