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Brawl Characters 2gud
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05/25/2012, 03:13 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/25/2012 03:15 PM by DrinkingFood.)
Post: #61
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*sigh* the last post on the page 5. That is your post. You said "That quote was from DrinkingFood for clarity's sake." But in that post you never quoted me. You didn't make it clear what it was I said that you were quoting until your next post. That's all I was saying. But it doesn't matter now, though. Just chalk another up for "Marf confusing people with a lack of a cohesive train of thought."
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![[Image: smashmodsgimmicksmall.png]](http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r615/DrinkingFood/smashmodsgimmicksmall.png)
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05/25/2012, 03:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/25/2012 04:03 PM by Marf.)
Post: #62
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(05/25/2012 09:06 AM)xAesirGOD Wrote: go look up some melee videos of like Mango (fox) vs M2K (marth) Yes I know marths moves can be baited. That is because all of his aerials can be shieldgrabbed or OoS naired or WDOoS'd unless they are spaced perfectly. Ike's fair, on the other hand, has a longer reach and actually pushes shields (shield knockback). Quote:That isn't what i meant. slow as in they have slow moves and bad aerial mobility. I believe I know what you are trying to say but I still do not agree. we can look at some frame data but ikes slowest move is fair (ignoring fsmash usmash) and it probably covers the most area of any move. zelda's slowest move is probably uair. both of their bairs, nairs, jabs, uairs, utilts, ftilts, dsmashes, etc are out within the first well before frame 10 and have very low cool down. yes zeda has poor aerial mobility. ike has ok aerial mobility. I cannot think of a single bad move that either of these characters posses. point being, their moves are not slow. In fact zelda has the same aerial mobility as CF. and ike has similar speed off of run>jump. (http://smashmods.com/forum/thread-3849.html) Quote:Waveshining isn't that hard to do lol. Also SDI doesn't **** it up... SDI ruins drillshines, not waveshines. I did not say it was hard to do. I said it took skill. rolling your face on the c stick does not take skill. And you are incorrect. an opponent SDI'ing shortens fox's combos considerably. if you sdi a wave shine correctly it is very unlikely that you will get wave shined again. there is a reason you dont see pros getting waveshined accross FD. SDI also makes it a whole lot harder for fox to get easy uair kills. Quote:mm no. Sheik's chaingrab was removed to balance the character. Ah so bad characters should all have braindead CGs on most of the cast? snake doesn't suck imo. His jab and tilts are still godlike. his c4/mine games have only improved. his recovery is still good. his aerials are still very good. THERE IS NO TOURNEY DATA OR EVEN CLOSE TO ENOUGH VIDEO DATA. do not cite your own opinions as fact. Seeing how i only have my opinions and observations to back me up, i did not make any statement regarding snake's overall utility. I simply said he has a braindead CG on alot of characters. seeing how the braindead/inescapable CGs have been removed, i figured this would be relevant (braindead CGs: everything D3 does, lots of sheik's on low tiers, CGs against pika, DK and other low tiers). So unless you are saying having braindead CGs is good game design, please reconsider/explain. Quote:you can buffer jump with the c-stick. thats how shine OoS is so good in melee. Yes my point is Ike's aether does not stop contacting your shield until he is on the ledge. (05/25/2012 03:13 PM)DrinkingFood Wrote: *sigh* the last post on the page 5. That is your post. You said "That quote was from DrinkingFood for clarity's sake." But in that post you never quoted me. You didn't make it clear what it was I said that you were quoting until your next post. That's all I was saying. But it doesn't matter now, though. Just chalk another up for "Marf confusing people with a lack of a cohesive train of thought." ah gotcha. I thought it was clear because quoting you was the only time i used quotation marks. I had forgotten that I was lazy and just used the Quote: notationas opposed to specifying (ex. [quote='DrinkingFood' pid='73012' dateline='1337969588']). |
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05/25/2012, 04:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/25/2012 04:41 PM by Kink-Link5.)
Post: #63
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I'd very much like to hear one thing about Charizard that is "overpowered" enough to overcome his really really stupid lingering hurtbox on 90% of his animations. Any whiff, any trade, and any approach are stuffed by any character with hitboxes bigger than vSonic. |
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05/25/2012, 04:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/25/2012 04:57 PM by MachGO!.)
Post: #64
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(05/24/2012 09:19 PM)Marf Wrote: I'm talking about hiting below the stage. like people sweeting the edge from BELOW the stage as if the character was recovering UPWARDS like most do. dtilt and shield breaker are marths only moves that hit BELOW the stage. LOL you are very wrong. Fsmash hits just as low as shield breaker (and is still faster, longer ranged, and stronger w/o charging the shield breaker) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY (05/24/2012 09:19 PM)Marf Wrote: No pro marth fsmashes as an edgeguard. that will NEVER work against anyone who can recover properly aka sweet the ledge. they get on the ledge and/or go offstage to GIMP because marth is godlike at gimping. yes of course he can "jab, ftilt, fsmash" players that do not sweet the edge, every single member of the cast can do that. (05/24/2012 09:19 PM)Marf Wrote: No pro marth fsmashes as an edgeguard. (05/24/2012 09:19 PM)Marf Wrote: No pro marth fsmashes as an edgeguard. (05/24/2012 09:19 PM)Marf Wrote: No pro marth fsmashes as an edgeguard. Dear God. Just look up some videos and stop pretending that you know everything. |
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05/25/2012, 05:14 PM
Post: #65
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I'm surprised you guys are even debating to him anymore. From everything I've read that he says, it sounds like he's coming from a 2002 melee metagame on top of being a very poor linguist.
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05/27/2012, 07:18 AM
Post: #66
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He said marth can't edgeguard from the stage... I don't think he knows that characters can input jump followed by down+a. At this point, I just assume the opposite of what he says is true. |
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05/27/2012, 08:09 AM
Post: #67
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charizards sideB is not broken for one reason: If the opponent sweetspots the ledge, then they will easily be able to hit charizard in his endlag, and because of his size they can combo him to death. His dthrow is a bit stupid, I feel it should pop opponents up so it's not a guaranteed tech chase. |
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05/27/2012, 04:34 PM
Post: #68
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I don think anyone was arguing about his side-b lol. Also you CAN tech out of his down throw- the timing is weird ht it's still not a guaranteed tech chase on reaction.
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05/28/2012, 05:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/28/2012 05:39 PM by Marf.)
Post: #69
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(05/25/2012 04:57 PM)MachGO! Wrote: LOL you are very wrong. Fsmash hits just as low as shield breaker (and is still faster, longer ranged, and stronger w/o charging the shield breaker) Look at the video you posted. Might I direct your attention to 8:04? Because thats like half a character length below the stage and far lower than fsmash. read the description of your video... (05/25/2012 04:57 PM)MachGO! Wrote: Dear God. Just look up some videos and stop pretending that you know everything. You are the only one pretending you know everything. I've stated multiple times that I am open to being proven wrong. In fact, I want to be proven wrong. You link me a video of M2K or Azen or what have you deciding " OH ILL JUST CHARGE MY FSMASH BY THE EDGE, NO ONE EXPECTS THAT." (with the previously stated exception of CF/ganny). Fsmash is use after a throw or a fair or what have you. Good players do not just throw it out. (05/27/2012 07:18 AM)Hyperception Wrote: He said marth can't edgeguard from the stage... I don't think he knows that characters can input jump followed by down+a. Yes a SHFFL'd dair is a good option against characters like falco recovering straight up, especially on YI with the slanted edges. Its also very good against characters with bad recoveries like ganny/CF. Aerial shieldbreaker and dtilt are also good options depending on the situation. But as I have said, getting off stage and gimping is almost always the best option. (05/27/2012 08:09 AM)jalued Wrote: charizards sideB is not broken for one reason: If the opponent sweetspots the ledge, then they will easily be able to hit charizard in his endlag, and because of his size they can combo him to death. I'm saying you can space it so it hits well below the stage, interrupting any attempt to sweet the ledge. Thank you on the dthrow. (05/27/2012 04:34 PM)DrinkingFood Wrote: I don think anyone was arguing about his side-b lol. Also you CAN tech out of his down throw- the timing is weird ht it's still not a guaranteed tech chase on reaction. Yes you can tech out of it. and yes it still is a guaranteed tech chase on reaction: teching actually makes it easier for zard to chase since he just has to react and not worry about get up attack. I've found a few exceptions like Zelda, who has an abnormally long (distance wise) tech roll. (05/25/2012 05:14 PM)Sudai Wrote: I'm surprised you guys are even debating to him anymore. From everything I've read that he says, it sounds like he's coming from a 2002 melee metagame on top of being a very poor linguist. Well if I was coming from a '02 metagame, I would be the one saying fsmash is a great edgeguard. Also, thanks for the condescension again. If anyone would like to point out where in my posts I have worded things poorly, then I would be happy to change them. inb4everywhere |
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05/28/2012, 05:46 PM
Post: #70
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Everywhere. There you go, you predicted correctly. I think that might be the first time you've been right in this thread. |
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05/28/2012, 05:50 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/28/2012 06:10 PM by Marf.)
Post: #71
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Yaay more condescension. Well I haven's misspelled anything and my sentence structure has been correct as far as I know but w/e. Also before I get links of Marth fsmashing furries out of illusion, I have already stated that I'm talking about hitting below the stage at a recovery going upwards. yes I forgot dair, I wasn't thinking of aerials. Also I'm hoping to record some today. We had a tourney this weekend and had too much brawl recorded to get any P:M...we barely finished the P:M bracket. |
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05/28/2012, 06:38 PM
Post: #72
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Marf, you have failed to realize two things: 1. I already said aerial shield breaker is lower, I am talking about grounded options. 2. You stated that dtilt and shield breaker are marth's two best grounded options against low recoveries. The hitbox video makes it more than evident that fsmash is lower than dtilt and as low (if not lower?) than shield breaker. The evidence has already presented itself. By your logic, fsmash is as equivalent of an option for edgeguarding to dtilt and shield breaker and your argument has collapsed on itself. You are now asking for circumstantial evidence to somehow maintain the idea that you are right, when you, in fact, have already been proven wrong. |
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05/28/2012, 06:47 PM
Post: #73
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Yes Marf, I AM being condescending. (That means I'm talking down to you.) You've already made it clear to everyone who posted here that you deserve it. |
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05/28/2012, 06:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/28/2012 07:11 PM by Marf.)
Post: #74
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Oh well I never specifically said shield breaker was a better grounded option than fsmash. I said shield breaker was better than fsmash for edgeguarding. I understand I was not clear as to whether I was talking about grounded or aerial SB. It appeared to me that SB was slightly more below the stage than fsmash (grounded). But that is inconsequential and debatable. The good thing about dtilt is it reaches out diagonally and does not give your opponent a chance to DI up and live. By best option I meant the greatest chance of hitting, and aerial shield breaker fits that description. Counter should also be mentioned here for fire emblem chars and spacies. I said dtilt was a better option than fsmash for the DI reason; fsmash is typically a lot easier though. To reiterate my point: fsmash is not a good edgeguard unless you are against CF/ganny. It is very very good off of grabs, aerials, tilts, etc. Whether or not the hitboxes go lower, the fact still stands that I have yet to find or get from you some videos of marth using this great edgeguarding tool. also it has very poor cooldown and is easily punished from the edge. (05/28/2012 06:47 PM)DrinkingFood Wrote: Yes Marf, I AM being condescending. (That means I'm talking down to you.) HAH, I GET IT! |
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05/28/2012, 07:16 PM
Post: #75
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I'd just like to point out that shieldbreaker is apparently really hard to tech for some reason...
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05/28/2012, 07:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/28/2012 08:22 PM by Marf.)
Post: #76
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Before even more pointless bickering arises, I'll restate my concerns that I am interested in discussing. Ike: Quick Draw has far too many options/mixups out of it. This type of flexibility/mobility is something only seen in hacks. No one had a move this good in melee. It would be like making falcon kick JCable. QD gives ike the horizontal recovery twice that of fox's illusion. Not only that but he can control the distance and the hitbox is better than illusions. ALSO YOU CAN WJ IT. So it goes twice as far and just as fast as illusion with the ability to use up after it. Fair is safe when l-cancelled. Fair covers all around ike and cannot be punished by OoS options. you all have told me just bait it or OoS it. baiting, by definition, does not work on something that is safe. I have not been able to OoS WD it or anythign else, please post vids of this. (not mentioning Ikes godlike jab and ftilt) Aether is too safe of a recovery. The fixed BKB is too good and it has constant hitboxes. I am hoping to show the latter two in video. I don't know what else I could do to show the first two. Zard: Dthrow guarantees a techchase on most characters at every %. Ftilt kills stupid early. I will show both of these and flame wall in videos. Lucas: His horizontal spacing is way too good and safe. Nair sends at a stupid angle in addition to being an excellent move. Videos for both of these as well. Zelda: usmash chains braindead easy and combos into fair/bair. This has already been discussed by tank! but I can post a video as well. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RBMvEMNy...ion_535631 I think i posted the wrong match previously). Snake: Dthrow chains (very easily) on a large portion of the cast and guarantees followups. I can do a video on this too. Now if you disagree with me, great. Post videos. Theorycrafting here is not going to help. Frame data is cool too. Now the only rebuttals I have received are "NO IT DOESNT" (aether, lcanceled fair, dthrow), unrelated side talk (marth options, unhelpful criticism, etc), and "DOESN'T MATTER CUZ I THINK HES BAD" (zard, snake, zelda, and such). So either post intelligently (I apologize if I have not), wait patiently for videos like kink, barbond, itallianstallion, and max, or actually ignore me. |
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05/28/2012, 07:58 PM
Post: #77
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Less theorysmash and more videos, please. We can argue pages and pages of text, but it's all worthless unless somebody is seen in high level tournament play abusing the things you're complaining about. |
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05/28/2012, 08:03 PM
Post: #78
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(05/28/2012 07:58 PM)Shadic Wrote: Less theorysmash and more videos, please. 
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05/28/2012, 08:13 PM
Post: #79
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I think Marf has to prove his claim before anyone has to rebuttal it. That means videos.
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05/28/2012, 08:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/28/2012 08:35 PM by Marf.)
Post: #80
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(05/28/2012 07:41 PM)Marf Wrote: So either post intelligently (I apologize if I have not), wait patiently for videos like kink, barbond, itallianstallion, and max, or actually ignore me. (05/28/2012 07:58 PM)Shadic Wrote: We can argue pages and pages of text, but it's all worthless unless somebody is seen in high level tournament play abusing the things you're complaining about. Seems like your being rather redundant as both Shadic and I have stated wait for videos. I have said post videos if you have them (to save me time) otherwise wait for mine. |
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