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2.0 counter
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08/14/2011, 11:43 AM
Post: #21
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If you roll away from Lucario at the right moment, Luke goes whizzing by merrily and you are unharmed. If you roll towards Luke, you eat shit and die. But yes, shielding is prolly the best option. |
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08/14/2011, 01:25 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/14/2011 01:25 PM by filbert.)
Post: #22
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Yeah, but the fact that you can get away without taking damage isn't special. You should always be able to do that unless you're in hitstun or badly out of position. Even if he passes, he can do the same thing. Basically, unless he does it stupidly and spams it without regard for where you are, that move is a nonpunishable combo starter.
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08/15/2011, 01:32 AM
Post: #23
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The new DownB is little overpowered , how about slowering the time before he appears? And its confusing by how to move behind or forward. Also needs some effects to let it less glitchy looking . (but not alot of effects that lags the game like toon link side B or NB(seriously fix this please..)) And also i think up B shouldnt have hitboxes as long as you can cancel it :/ |
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08/15/2011, 02:06 AM
Post: #24
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It seemed punishable when I was playing Mouse's Lucario, I just didn't understand how it worked.. like, is he invincible or something? how long is the hitbox out?
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08/15/2011, 08:02 AM
Post: #25
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Hitbox is whenever he's moving. He's fast, and it's hard to hit him. I'd imagine that with practice, you could learn what beats it. Now that I think about it, it shouldn't be that hard to get used to. First figure out what moves beat it, then learn the timing. |
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08/15/2011, 07:24 PM
Post: #26
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Yeah he can be attacked but , its annoying if you cancel it with jump then doing it again , nearly impossible to be hit .
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08/15/2011, 10:36 PM
Post: #27
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That's what I thought at first. I feel like if you practiced, you could get used to it and learn to counter it.
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 08/17/2011, 06:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/17/2011 07:28 PM by regal68.)
Post: #28
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(08/15/2011 01:32 AM)meshor Wrote: The new DownB is little overpowered , how about slowering the time before he appears? ^^^ this man is absolutely correct. i think counter is now stupidly safe. itd be like if marths shield breaker in the air was 2-3x faster and he could continually do it without any ending lag. I think it would be best if you put ending lag on it if it misses (like any counter should have) and it should be limited to one use per jump (this wouldnt affect his recover, one use gives him more than enough momentum to get back from any distance). The way it is now is stupidly safe and unpunishable. You say you can punish it if you practice but no you cant with the jump cancel. If you try to space in a fair in there (which would work typically) its EXTREMELY easy to see this coming and jump cancel it and punish with dair (which goes through basically everything but thats ok) or ya know just use the stupidest move in this build, UpB.............This goes for attempts to predict the JC by staying on the ground and utilt or something. the only thing that can work is a well timed counter (ike/marth) but that easily gets predictable and as always is punishable. UpB goes through EVERYTHING. ive never hit it with extremely high priority moves like zelda/link usmash. this move is like if MK could approach with the priority and knockback of shuttle loop, cancel it into ANY move not just glide attack; he would also have NO landing lag and have the ability to direct it in any direction, even diagonally downard making it a broken spike. oh and not to mention its STUPID FAST. I cant think of a single move that is faster. Certainly dolphin slash is faster but its uses are extremely limited as well as its range. soo basically lucarios upb is currently a dolphin slash (w/ sweet spot) in any and ever direction...OH WAIT and you can cancel into anything so its safe if you do it right. Phantasm/illusion/wateverwolfsis and moves like it may also be a bit faster but oh yeah those always go the same direction and you can hit them out of the middle of it easily. Oh and yea and i cant really see a way to stop it as an approach. certainly some projectiles work but if the lucario is close enough, he can just do it in a rainbow shape over the projectile. no projectile is fast enough to do this reaction (Falco's SHDL is the only thing i can think of that would be a good stop of it and will be fast enough to do it on reaction well at least one laser). Gannys fsmash does well against this tho. any move that is fast enough to do on reaction gets out prioritized (note im talking about it as an approach when your close like just outside of dks ftilt) zeldas usmash and fsmash could be possible. If you try to wall with fairs with someone like marth/ike it doesnt help much even tho they are gigantic disjoints. I think if you hit lucario with the tip of ikes fair you will actually hit him out of it. but ikes fair is far far too slow to be safe as in its extremly easy to bait and punish because if the ike isnt starting the move when you appear to be approaching it wont be out in time. same goes for marth if you tipper him i think you might hit him out of it but i have a feeling it will clash and im sure a sour spot doesnt work. also keep in mind that MARTHS FAIR has enough lag to punish it with this up b. you might just say oh just time things well derp. keep in mind this is the FASTEST MOVE IN THE GAME. it takes extremely precise timing with the fastest/best of moves in addition to a fair amount of luck and with other moves it takes an extreme amount of luck. *EDIT* oh and if you airdodge the up b he can typically bair/dair you and if hes too far away: LOLCOUNTER Perhaps even more alarming is the fact that IT TAKES NO SKILL. It literally took my friend five matches to become proficient with Luckario. he practiced a bit on his own to figure out uair/fair combos into itself continually and he had already figured out the variations/applications of upb. note that this is a player who NEVER PLAYED LUCARIO BEFORE and hardly played vbrawl at all. The only thing that takes a bit of getting used to was aerial force palm (which is a cool move btw) but it shouldnt combo INTO ITSELF REPEATEDLY. Its basically guaranteed to combo into itself twice on most of the cast (with DI in my experience). and on the heavy characters it does at least FIVE TIMES (with no DI) and 2-3 with it (im DIing and SDing upwards as lucario drifts diagonally downards while hes doing it). Keep in mind this is can be deadly. TL;DR- I want Lucario to be punishable and take skill to use and not simply be DASHATTACKDASHATTACKDASHATTACK-UTILTUTILT-UAIRUAIRUAIR-UPB-UAIRUAIRUAIRUARIBLLLLALAARRRRGJLAKJERNB:LKJSPLIRHEWIJRSA. *note the above is applicable with fairs in combination with aerial force palm instead of uairs and counter and fthrow instead of dash attack. Also if you dont get what im saying here is its retarded to be able to combo by pointing the stick at your opponent and rapidly pressing attack (yes i know you have to utilt and up b...its the same idea). For the record i also dont want P:M's LOLLOOKITSRYU! The above wall of text also greatly affects his MUs. I really dont understand why no one is talking about him being top tier. I cant think of any bad matchups. Falco might be a disadvantage, but not a big one. i also think marth and wolf are close but in luc's favor 55/45 ish. hes also UNGIMPABLE with the current up b. *EDIT* LOL JK Lucario v Bowser is like 10/90 LOL i forgot. Ideas for fixing: Down B: like i said limit one use per jump (as in you have to land and jump again to re use it) and give ending lag if you miss with it (only when used on the ground as in you cant jump cancel it if you miss). this makes the move punishable (WHAT?! he actually gets punished for not hitting with a move like everyone else???) and keeps it from being abusable (use repeatedly until you start a combo, JC aerial/UpB any attempts to hit you out of it). Up B: Get rid of the damn hitboxes. who said "HAI GUISE wouldnt it be cool if we give him a recovery thats the fastest in the game, has the most priority, oh and he can cancel it into anything so its completely safe and theres not punish for missing the ledge??!@" If you can cancel a recover into any move it DOES NOT need the knockback and priority of Dolphin Slash and Shuttle Loop. On an unrelated note, for those of you familiar with vanilla lucario, i think it would be extremely cool to be able to edit the issues with lucarios power level (lul) in respect to lives/damage. For those of you that dont know, Lucario's lives affect his power to a greater extent than his percentage does. this works out fine in singles, the effect is well balanced. BUT in FFA and doubles things can be horribly unfair. Lets say Lucario is four stocking and doing well at 100+%. his advantage will decrease as his opponents lives decrease. If ANY player loses all of their stocks (friend/enemy) the nerf/buff based on lucarios lives is LOCKED IN ITS CURRENT STATE. This is not undone by share stocking to my knowledge. This means if lucario does well and has more stocks than the rest of the players and someone dies completely, he remains in that extremely nerfed state this makes it extremely hard to kill even when lucario is past 150% this needs to be fixed it is why lucario is not often used in teams (and this can be exploited in teams). Yes I know this is long. I am also aware that this is not a thread on his up b but its related. The last bit is also not his counter but I dont think it warrants its own thread. I also realize most of you probably wont agree with me about the up b or at least completely agree. this friday im hoping to get some matches recorded against him especially against marth, falco, DK, Captain, and Gannon. also a few videos showing his side b comboing into itself repeatedly in addition to up b being really gay. alllsoo the videos Rkey uploaded into the up b thread awhile ago do a good job of showing what i mean. i dont know how much lucario has changed since then except for the down b. but it show how stupid and abusable up b is: lol he knocked me away? Just upb back!! is downward up b > usmash still a true combo? i know its still a true spike.... say all the crap about COMPUTERS AR BAD YOU SCRUB...in vbrawl yes theyre awful in melee you can beat anyone by charging an fsmash and waiting (marths :3, lol well theyre not that awful) but in minus the AI REALLY SHINES. Level 9s are EXTREMELY good at punishing unsafe approaches and moves, yes i realize they dont really DI. they also have SUPERHUMAN reaction skills for PSing and interrupting. My point is in those three videos that computer could do NOTHING. Up B is an instant EVERYTHING punsh/tech chase/air chase/approach. PSing it didnt help. The second Rkey stopped abusing up b his tilt and aerial got punished in a combo>death. It wasnt that the samus wasnt trying it was that she COULDNT DO ANYTHING. any of her projectiles were cancelled by dash attack/up b and the stupid amounts of speed of up b prevent her from ever charging her laser EVEN AFTER KILLING HIM. heres the link if you havent seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnqdXd8Qj4 |
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08/18/2011, 04:30 PM
Post: #29
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Oh in the meantime heres another excellent video showing what i mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuwCaQhGj2s this a friendly between toil and mouse. Toil was completely unable to punish upb (once mouse spaced it poorly and ended the move right next to dk so he hit him OoS) and unable to punish counter (again once mouse spaces it improperly and Toil was able to clash with it with bair). Keep in mind DK is widely considered one of the best if not THE BEST character in the game. Also keep in mind that Toil has proven himself a very good DK and that Mouse lost a stock due to recovery error and another due to not knowing how to deal with barrels (he figured out later in the match counter does very well against them).
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08/18/2011, 07:04 PM
Post: #30
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I would fix it by taking away Lucario's crazy priority. Just make the hitbox smaller, and the problem should be mostly fixed.
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08/18/2011, 07:18 PM
Post: #31
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Yes that could work, I would also want a slightly slower UpB (that thing is considerably faster than most projectiles) and or increased start up lag/a bit more obvious tell when hes starting it. (i assume your talking about the up b not counter)
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08/18/2011, 08:25 PM
Post: #32
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Up-B isn't that fast. If the hitbox is smaller, it will give a BIT more time to react. However, you also won't need to react that fast if the hitbox is smaller because more moves would beat it.
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08/18/2011, 11:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/18/2011 11:35 PM by regal68.)
Post: #33
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its the fastest approach in the game. ill get some vids up hopefully. also ill trust you on that, what about the counter?
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08/19/2011, 04:00 AM
(This post was last modified: 08/19/2011 04:06 AM by SmashFromThePast.)
Post: #34
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Having it send Lucario into special fall would make the far distance he travels become more risky since it could easily send you over the edge. Maybe add some lag at the end so he can't attack out of it right away like he seems to be able to (he can already do that with Extreme Speed anyway.)
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08/19/2011, 11:20 AM
Post: #35
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^ I do find that annoying he NEVER goes into special fall and can attack out of anything
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08/19/2011, 12:46 PM
Post: #36
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Before the Down-B gave him a recovery from anywhere, he wasn't that good. Sure, he could attack after using his Up-B, but he still had a hard time recovering. Extremespeed has a pretty long tell, and it doesn't move so blazingly fast that you can't hit him out of it. Counter is like Extremespeed, but it's insanely fast. If the hitbox was a bit smaller, it would be easier to punish and give a tiny bit more time. I don't think that Down-B is too good. Yet. It might turn out to be OP, but I'm pretty sure it can be countered. |
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08/19/2011, 12:56 PM
Post: #37
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Naw down b is very punishable. However I think its so spamable it makes it a dumb move.
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08/19/2011, 02:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/19/2011 02:44 PM by RAI.)
Post: #38
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The jump cancel is the dumbest part of the new counter, but you can only jump cancel once. Its lame that its a crazy good approach and recovery, but I can deal with that. Personally I like the strange offensive power and maneuverability lucario has... its like his pokemon game where his special and physical attack are great and his speed keeps up with OU tier. If you want to nerf lucario I think you should reduce his weight, make him easier to kill. This makes living with good aura harder to survive with, effectively nerfing the whole character, but it also keeps his insane mobility mindgame style. I think this style almost makes lucario like the new Mewtwo again (you know how mewtwo had a farther roll than any other character). Lucario is so hard to hit that making him lighter doesn't damage his playstyle that much, it enhances the caution you need to perform when the stakes are high. AND it keeps it true to the pokemon games. We all know what is important right? I say that we should keep the overpowered moves, but its not my vote. |
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08/19/2011, 03:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 08/19/2011 03:43 PM by regal68.)
Post: #39
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(08/19/2011 02:41 PM)RAI Wrote: I think this style almost makes lucario like the new Mewtwo again (you know how mewtwo had a farther roll than any other character). Lucario is so hard to hit that making him lighter doesn't damage his playstyle that much, it enhances the caution you need to perform when the stakes are high. Lucario is nothing like Mewtwo other than aura sphere and a safeish roll. the playstyles are EXTREMELY different. Keeping the OP moves? that would require giving all of the other characters extremely broken, fast, unpunishable approaches and combo starters with extremely high priority or at least giving them counters to such techniques. I hope i dont have to say that this would make minus stupid. The problem with lucario is EVERYTHING IS SAFE. In my experience you CANNOT punish counter if it is spaced correctly. the only conceivable way is to use ike/marths counter which is shut down by JCing out of counter. same goes for any attempts to space a fair. The ONLY way to punish UpB is for them to space it poorly so then end up right in front of you allowing for shield grabs and jabs. Look at the Toil v Mouse vid i posted. Lucarios approach consists of spamming counter and upb. Toil punishes each of these moves ONCE when mouse used them improperly. Toil is a GOOD DK and he only got one stock off mouse on his own; the other two were caused by a recovery mistake and mouse not using counter against barrels. Counter needs ending lag on miss so its actually risky. getting rid of JC would ruin a lot of Lucarios mixups and combos not to mention giving him an awful recovery like zeldas only with a better upb. he also needs to be limited to one JC between the time he jumps off the ground and the time he lands again. UpB needs that hitbox removed or at least downsized and knockback reduced. an extremely fast, unpunishable move does NOT need a knockback similar to sweet spotted dolphin slash/luttle shoop. Everyone is saying oh counter is easy to punish and upb isnt very broken without offering ANY support or details. PLEASE show/tell me, I WANT to be proven wrong. At the very least I am Positive that these moves are broken at the casual level. *CAPS DONT MEAN IM ANGRY THEYRE FOR EMPHASIS BOLD IS A PAIN TO DO* (08/19/2011 02:41 PM)RAI Wrote: If you want to nerf lucario I think you should reduce his weight, make him easier to kill. hes already pretty light. its just his supid ability to UpB right back at his opponent anytime he gets hit/Counter to COMPLETELY dissapear and punish any attempts to punish him that prevents him from being killed. as in NOTHING you do to him puts him in a bad position. (08/19/2011 02:41 PM)RAI Wrote: This makes living with good aura harder to survive with, effectively nerfing the whole character, but it also keeps his insane mobility mindgame style. :[ Mindgames ARE NOT SPAMMING A MOVE AT YOUR OPPONENT IN RESPONSE TO EVERYTHING HE DOES. |
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08/19/2011, 04:21 PM
Post: #40
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I've seen how impossible it is to hit lucario when he spams the counter. I said originally I thought the JC was 'dumb'. Because JC makes it so you can't predict the move and just uh... (I'm not sure how to describe it) but kinda 'roll with the punch': when lucario counters continue to run forward, in my mind I think most of the medium-fast to fast characters should be able to pass the hitbox and be waiting for lucario when thhe momentum of the counter continues puts him right in their hands. JC is a loophole this theory. I haven't tried this yet... so I don't know. I will be playing against a lucario soon, so I will have some ideas. I would like the move to be nerfed as little as possible. You said that other characters need overpowered moves and such to balance Lucario's counter, but doesn't every character have some gimick that can be abused? I like how the counter revolutionizes Lucarios playstyle. I'd like to keep that. I don't even play as lucario. I just think it looks cool and forces you to adapt. I stand by my suggestion of making lucario even lighter. I mean... you can't quite equip a focus sash to him in this game, but I was thinking around those lines. Make Lucario need a focus sash. Sorry for the pokemon reference. I'm not very concerned about up-b because of the slight delay before the attack initiates. In my experience when a player bases their game off an up-b approach I have just enough time to sheild or change my spacing in that delay. Make that delay longer, reduce the hitbox priority, give it a static angle of knockback... yeah you can nerf the move, but in my experience it has never been too good. I like your idea of bolding words to show pain or emphasis. Although we should figure out how to format text to show anger. Just so we can tell whos a hater. |
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