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DJC makes no sense
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05/09/2011, 10:59 PM
Post: #1
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Why is it the only way you can do a rising aerial attack is by holding on to the jump button? Its dumb. And when you want to do an aerial attack while recovering you have to hold on to a jump button... Or... if you are one of those people that jumps with the control stick you end up DJCing everything. And its complete crap. You can't do the more natural rising aerials because you can't hold the freaking up direction to stop from doing a DJC. I think this is one reason why no one plays as lucas... because its easy to DJC but its hard to double jump attack. |
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05/09/2011, 11:35 PM
Post: #2
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Interestingly enough, I've recently started maining Lucas. I recommend turning tap jump off, and using X or Y. For me, the system works really well and gives you great control.
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05/09/2011, 11:53 PM
Post: #3
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Who the heck uses tap jump? It's obvious that it's not the issue because Ness has the same thing, and Ness is pretty popular. I think you might be trolling.
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05/10/2011, 12:00 AM
Post: #4
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I'm trolling? Fine, maybe I suck with Lucas. I do use X or Y to jump. I just find it extremely awkward to do things like rising dairs and rising bairs. I guess its just me then... I totally didn't notice Ness has it the same way, and I found it actually useful to DJC with Ness the way he is. My main concern is that Lucas doesn't want to DJC as much as Ness does but it feels like Lucas DJCs everything. |
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05/10/2011, 12:57 AM
Post: #5
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I understand that the nature of Lucas's aerials means that you DJC less but it would be too confusing to have a different DJC simply because it's been like that way for everyone like Ness and Yoshi since Smash 64.
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05/13/2011, 09:01 PM
Post: #6
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I do not see what is difficult about pressing X or Y and A at the same time. I just made this argument in the P:M thread about this exact same thing. |
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05/14/2011, 05:15 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2011 05:16 PM by Thunda-Moo.)
Post: #7
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My issue is that the change is annoying and jarring for new players, but if it was just inverted (hold jump to DJC instead of to not DJC) these problems would all be averted. So why didn't you do that? It just seems silly. Also, I just don't get why Lucas has it. It makes sense on Ness, and it's certainly helpful on Lucas, but I always considered Lucas the more "grounded Ness" and giving him a DJC seems out of place for anything but making him more clone-like. Not that his other changes don't differentiate him plenty, but... meh. At the end of the day, though, I mained Ness in vBrawl, and I play a lot of Ness and Lucas in Minus, and it's overall beneficial to them and you'll get used to pretty fast. |
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05/14/2011, 07:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2011 07:46 PM by Kink-Link5.)
Post: #8
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I disagree. When I first started Minus up holding Jump while doing a rising aerial was already natural. I didn't even know there were DJC's until I looked on the changelists and found out how. It would be jarring for new players trying to do a rising DJ aerial if trying to do so quickly resulted in exactly the opposite result. Pressing X (or Y) and A simultaneously is completely natural since it is the fastest way to input a rising aerial already. It is less natural to have to let go of X (or Y) consciously and the press A, and as it is less natural of a tendency, should be delegated to a more advanced use of the double jump: The DJC. From an input perspective, it also makes sense that holding Jump lets your jump continue while releasing Jump allows it to cancel, Just like holding Jump gives you a full hop but tapping it gives you a short hop. Or just like tapping A gives you Kirby's default, smaller dash attack, while holding A gives you the larger one.
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05/14/2011, 09:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/14/2011 09:45 PM by Shade_.)
Post: #9
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Kink-Link I'm going to disagree with you and I'll explain my reasoning. For one, it is NOT natural to hold jump while pressing 'a'. It makes sense on paper. "Holding jump makes you go up". Yeah, sounds good, but from a technical perspective it is awkward for most players. The first habits you need to develop when trying to learn tech skill with fast characters is you always want your thumb to be ready and free to move where ever it needs after pressing jump/'y'/'x'. This is ESSENTIAL with Fox, Flaco, Marth, Samus. Short hop-shuffle laser, and short hop-shuffle n-air are a must know (This was needed in melee). And when you trained yourself to short hop, you also trained yourself to quickly tap the jump button and then move your thumb to the 'a' or 'b' button. All characters that need to move quickly forced you to regularly tap the jump button. In fact it wasn't until Minus that I've EVER held the jump button down. Even in brawl (the slowest smash game) I never even held the jump button on down for a full jump. It was a slightly longer tap. I am willing to argue that most smash players are also used to "tapping" the jump button and few actually "hold" it down on a normal basis. When you hold down the jump button, your thumb has no freedom. Some controllers have different sensitivity, and will only respond, or respond best when the center of the 'a' button is pressed. It makes short-hop >attack, short-hop >attack feel awkward and more trouble than it should be. It's unnecessary to impose this new control input when so many players are unused to it. You argue it is easy to get used to, but I'm arguing it's not easy to get used to, especially for us 64, and melee players that have been playing the game for 12 years now. And even if it was natural, (Which I disagree with you), but Kink-link can you please explain to me how this "hold jump>attack" is a more sensible option than, REAL DJC? You argue all the common and great uses for it. But you do know that DJC is when you "Double jump" and before your double jump momentum pushes you up, and your attack cancels your momentum right? I completely agree that DJC is useful in many circumstances. But it was a lot more sensible when I performed it using a double-jump and then pressed 'A' a right afterward. |
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![[Image: 33xh5wy.png]](http://i43.tinypic.com/33xh5wy.png)
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05/15/2011, 01:13 AM
Post: #10
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Well, you're trying to make quite a few points, so I'll try to cover them one at a time- something I'm not very good at. As a long time Ness and Mewtwo player, I am fully aware of the applications of DJC'ing, it's uses, and its execution, and the variance of control it offers, but Double Jump Canceling does not always mean canceling it immediately, and this is especially true with Ness's Dair (which requires enough room to finish), Mewtwo's bair (Which has a long lasting hitbox), and Yoshi's DJC'ing in general (Letting the DJ start gives Yoshi horizontal speed that is often needed, as Fumi demonstrates very well). I fully agree that instant DJC's have many applications, but doing so isn't always the best option. "The first habits" learned for some characters shouldn't apply to every character, which should be obvious. Smash is a game with characters of greatly variant design, and some characters honestly have little or no use for short hopping (Peach, for instance) or even fast falling (Young Link's FF is nearly identical to his default falling speed). The characters who can DJC rarely worry about whether they short hop or full hop, since they will usually Double Jump immediately after either jump anyway. Your final point is something I don't understand. You still DJC by pressing A right after double jumping. It is especially confusing because it seems to contradict your previous statements. You have said that you are already trained to let go of X or Y quickly because you "always want your thumb to be ready and free to move where ever it needs after pressing jump/'y'/'x'," so what is the problem with pressing A after you double jump? You seem to be trying to argue two opposing points- "Quickly releasing buttons is a natural part of Smash game play" and "Double Jump Canceling should be done by holding Jump instead of releasing it" |
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05/15/2011, 07:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 05/15/2011 07:27 AM by Shade_.)
Post: #11
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I'll simplify it for you then. It looks like we do agree that DJC is definitely useful, so we don't have to argue about that. I feel like the reason for us arguing is because we have to different perspectives on the matter. You are arguing for this simulated "DJC" from the perspective of "it makes sense, and players should be able to adapt to it easily". I am arguing from the perspective that "yes, it makes sense on paper, but players aren't used to it, and therefor shouldn't need to adapt to it". I think what you really mean when you say "The characters who can DJC rarely worry about whether they short hop or full hop" you mean, "you rarely worry about it". The way minus is right now makes it IMPOSSIBLE to short hop and immediately do an ariel while rising. It's not rare to do so either. Ness: Short hop>rise d-air>fast fall = quickest way to land d-air, short hop > b-air out of shield punish, short hop up-air under enemy platform. Yoshi: short hop rise>f-air>fast fall is the quickest way to execute f-air. short-hop b-air for wall of attacks on slightly above ground level, Run>short hop> d-air is a classic way to hover your down-air over an enemy who is getting up or shielding. short hop> up air is the quickest way to nail a KO from under a platform. These are all no-longer possible, which is BAD, it is taking away character potential when you take away things characters can do (like rising attack from short hop). I could think of other situations, but my point is, different players DO have uses for it, and lots of them. Honestly, if most players that used characters like, Lucas, Yoshi, Ness, etc were completely fine with it, then it wouldn't be this big a deal on the forums. I'm also a long time Mewtwo and Yoshi player, straight from 64 and melee days. I used DJC, but I learned to do it the way it by rapidly tapping from 'y' yo 'a'. I know another guy that does it tapping from 'x' to 'a'. I know there are a variety of ways to do it. I'm not sure how you didn't see my final point. But my final point is the majority of us have trained to always let your thumb be ready to move right after pressing jump. Problem, your thumb can't be ready to move if it is being forced to hold down jump. It doesn't feel normal to "need" to leave your thumb somewhere. Your right that first habits learned for one character shouldn't apply for every character. Thing is, the concept of needing to hold down the jump button to keep your momentum is something you guys just invented like 6 months ago. For the past 12 years This mechanic didn't even exist in smash, therefor we were ALL forced into developing the sense that "holding jump = not important in smash". It's not a character related thing, this is an aspect of the game's mechanic that was instilled for general "smash brothers". Most people aren't used to it, so it should be secondary instead of primary. Hold down Y to cancel momentum if you want, but if you don't hold 'y', like all of us did for the past 12 years, then your momentum is unchanged. That's what I'm arguing for, not for the removal, just switch it to secondary. |
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05/15/2011, 12:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 05/15/2011 03:08 PM by Xyless.)
Post: #12
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We've recently made a few changes, primarily being moving Yoshi's to another command. I'm not sure what exactly to do with Ness' and Lucas'. Would people prefer having a pure DJC character, keep it how it is, tweak it in some way, or get rid of it all-together? I mean, I've always felt like cloned abilities would be frowned upon.
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![[Image: dancingsandwich.gif]](http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8056/dancingsandwich.gif)
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05/15/2011, 03:22 PM
Post: #13
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I'm glad to hear that Yoshi's has been moved to another command, the majority of us Yoshi lovers have had issues with it. As far as Ness and Lucas go, I'd say just switch it so hold down jump is DJC. That way the people complaining about it in the first place won't even notice it anymore. And the people who were arguing "it was easy to get used to" should just as easily be able to get used to the switch.
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05/15/2011, 03:29 PM
Post: #14
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Press jump not to jump? I haven't posted anything in this argument because I liked how it was. For me, it's more natural this way. Since I regularly play ssb64, this would be really different for me, and I would prefer that it stay as it is.
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05/15/2011, 08:29 PM
Post: #15
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The best way to figure out is probably just hold a poll thread in the Ness/Lucas forums for it then. Just a simple poll. Hopefully no soar losers make extra accounts to tip it in their favor though.
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05/15/2011, 08:45 PM
Post: #16
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(05/15/2011 12:34 PM)Xyless Wrote: We've recently made a few changes, primarily being moving Yoshi's to another command. I'm not sure what exactly to do with Ness' and Lucas'. Would people prefer having a pure DJC character, keep it how it is, tweak it in some way, or get rid of it all-together? I mean, I've always felt like cloned abilities would be frowned upon. Honestly, Ness should keep it the way it is. He's built for DJC, Yoshi and Lucas have better rising aerials. Also, if you're not against changing your control scheme, make a shoulder button jump. It makes both ways easier if you use a separate finger for it. |
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05/15/2011, 08:46 PM
Post: #17
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(05/15/2011 03:29 PM)filbert Wrote: Press jump not to jump? I haven't posted anything in this argument because I liked how it was. For me, it's more natural this way. Since I regularly play ssb64, this would be really different for me, and I would prefer that it stay as it is. That's what I was thinking, it's a really stupid idea. <_< |
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05/15/2011, 11:29 PM
Post: #18
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Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking holding Jump should make you jump.
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05/20/2011, 05:01 AM
Post: #19
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I personally don't play with tap jump, but several of my friends that enjoy this mod do, and tend to stay away from Ness/Lucas because of the DJC. Would it be too much effort to assign the ability to "switch" modes via taunt or something? I'm pretty sure manipulating the controls would be much easier than trying to break a habit. |
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