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CANCELS AND HEAVY ARMOR
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01/20/2011, 08:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/20/2011 08:49 PM by gangstakirby.)
Post: #21
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no no no.... its not that bowser restricts players options its that its boring to play against bowser because you have to resort to simplistic repetitive combos with the majority of cast in order to play bowser effectively(like usmashx3>youronlyaerialwitenuff%/knockback) maybe.... no Heavy armor when bowser is in hitstun and ground bouncing? it would leave the threat of Heavy armor being there as a powerful defense AND you can perfom actual NOT boring/easy/predictable combos... |
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01/20/2011, 08:33 PM
Post: #22
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Bowser does not have any super armor. He only has heavy armor. There is a difference.
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01/20/2011, 08:50 PM
Post: #23
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my suggestion still stands....
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01/20/2011, 09:26 PM
Post: #24
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IMO it would be better if bowser's armor was designed more like Project M bowser. Rather than having armor at all times, the armor is only applied at certain points. It could hurt to at least try it out.
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01/20/2011, 09:29 PM
Post: #25
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the way P:M does it isnt quite as minusy... i would assume it would be on alot more moves than P:M bowser shudnt have HA in hitstun... that itself would fix MOST the issues and boringness of playing bowser. |
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01/23/2011, 02:55 AM
Post: #26
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All I can say is if you do remove the heavy armor, then Bowser needs speed, power, range, priority, and cool down buffs on all his moves to make up for it. He's a walking tank in a battle where everyone is armed with bunker busters. With out the armor he's trash.
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![[Image: 33xh5wy.png]](http://i43.tinypic.com/33xh5wy.png)
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01/23/2011, 10:29 AM
Post: #27
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If they take out the armor, they're going to do a complete remake. But I don't think that they're going to take out the armor.
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01/24/2011, 02:48 AM
Post: #28
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Better to take it from some moves not all of them , and it varies in damage .
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01/25/2011, 06:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 01/25/2011 06:34 PM by Tremendade.)
Post: #29
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(01/13/2011 06:36 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: ... 100% agree. Bowser right now is not fun to play against, and he could still use more broken properties. Remove the armor, but give Bowser signifigantly more power on his attacks and more options to space heavy comboers, like a Earthquake stun on his down B, like DK's headbutt. (01/20/2011 09:26 PM)Monk Wrote: IMO it would be better if bowser's armor was designed more like Project M bowser. Rather than having armor at all times, the armor is only applied at certain points. It couldn't hurt to at least try it out. Fixed for ya ^_^ |
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01/28/2011, 10:35 PM
Post: #30
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(01/20/2011 09:26 PM)Monk Wrote: IMO it would be better if bowser's armor was designed more like Project M bowser. Rather than having armor at all times, the armor is only applied at certain points. It could hurt to at least try it out. I've been suggesting this since before it was included in PM and I still stand by it. Glad a back member agrees though c: |
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01/31/2011, 02:00 AM
Post: #31
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(01/20/2011 09:26 PM)Monk Wrote: IMO it would be better if bowser's armor was designed more like Project M bowser. Rather than having armor at all times, the armor is only applied at certain points. It could hurt to at least try it out. This makes more sense, just make Bowser heavier and harder to KO. |
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01/31/2011, 02:36 AM
Post: #32
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Another idea is to make a heavy armor in the beginning of the attacks So it will be awesome for mind games |
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02/02/2011, 05:04 PM
Post: #33
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If the armor was at the beginning, would it leave during and after the attack?
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02/02/2011, 07:45 PM
Post: #34
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I agree that Bowser should be combo-able during hitstun, i.e. it's tough to start a combo, and he's great at busting out of combos, but the combos still exist. Similarly, I'd say cut down on his universal heavy armor, but give him extra heavy/super armor on some of his moves. That way, he's still a heavy tank of a character, but he's far less boring to have in a match. I do love the armor idea though. It throws all sorts of matchups curveballs. Don't get rid of the armor, just rework it. My two cents, at least. |
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02/09/2011, 06:50 PM
Post: #35
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Bowser needs to be able to be comboed, I'm watching the current 2.0 streams, and it all boils down to using stale tactics in order to beat Bowser. Its not that he is impossible to beat, but there are only a few ways currently to beat him, and any good Bowser player will soon learn the tricks...
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02/15/2011, 01:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 02/15/2011 01:30 AM by Nucleotyde.)
Post: #36
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I don't get the chance to play with human players often, but I've been screwing around with Bowser (fighting against him, mostly as a CPU unfortunately, and as him) to see if I could get a better feel for his strengths and weaknesses. I have some suggestions, but I'm going to go ahead and throw some doubt on myself by saying that I might not actually know what I'm talking about. :V If some of these ideas are old or have already been implemented (I'm not very familiar with the finer points of his changelist), I'm sorry. To me, it seems like the biggest problem with the armor is that it's not really doing what it's supposed to. It should make him all around harder to combo; instead, it makes him nearly impossible to combo for the likes of Fox and does very little to stop the likes of Falcon. Like others have suggested, I think making him comboable on hitstun would help the matchups that are stacked in his favor. As is, Fox can win by taking potshots at him, but he can't gain any momentum. Being able to do some actual combos would do wonders for him. I was also thinking of giving him some other vulnerabilities, but I'm not sure where exactly. I like the idea of making him vulnerable on the cool down of some moves (maybe f-smash and flame breath), but I don't think I want to take it off of his non-attacking animations. One idea I had was to take the armor off of his standing animation; since he would rarely be completely idle, it wouldn't significantly nerf the armor, but it would give light characters a weakspot to keep an eye out for. Or, you could take it off of his dash so that he can be punished for being too reckless. I was thinking it might be nice to take it off of his laying on the ground state to punish missed techs. As far as making Bowser less comboable, a size decrease might be helpful. I like the idea of making him heavier and harder to kill, but it might just make him easier to juggle, and the characters he seems to have the most trouble with don't have much trouble killing anyway. I don't know if it's possible, but if you could decrease his size without reducing his weight, then it should make him harder to combo. It would at least make him harder to knee. Does Bowser have Melee Fortress? I remember Melee Fortress being a bit faster than the current one, so if he doesn't have it then it would probably be helpful. I was also thinking that it might be nice if it reflected to. I know it seems like overkill to give him a reflector when he has the armor, but it could help him out against Link and DK, characters who really don't care about his armor up close and have projectiles that break it. The wind on nair can be annoying, but I don't think it should be removed completely if possible. I'd like to see it pull people in on startup, then quit. That way, you can pull them in from the air for a quick ko. I think it would be nice if dair and bair had less endlag. It would make them more useful, and watching Bowser roll around on his back is kind of depressing anyway. |
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02/15/2011, 06:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 02/15/2011 06:07 AM by Roager.)
Post: #37
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Quote:Or, you could take it off of his dash so that he can be punished for being too reckless. I was thinking it might be nice to take it off of his laying on the ground state to punish missed techs.I like this. Also, less or no armor on jumping animation. Quote:Does Bowser have Melee Fortress? I remember Melee Fortress being a bit faster than the current one, so if he doesn't have it then it would probably be helpful. I was also thinking that it might be nice if it reflected to. I know it seems like overkill to give him a reflector when he has the armor, but it could help him out against Link and DK, characters who really don't care about his armor up close and have projectiles that break it.Fortress could use some work, but I don't know if reflector's the way to do it. I'd almost like to see it cancel into jump, just to see what that would do for him. Fortress into F-air, lulz. I'd more likely see it with super or very heavy armor, which lets him power through those projectiles. But the reflector has potential. it's worth thinking about. |
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02/15/2011, 02:30 PM
Post: #38
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I still think that a reflector might be a bit extreme to be honest, so heavier armor on it could might be better. I think Melee Fortress might have had some invincibility, so that could work too. Jump cancel sounds like it would be fun.
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02/15/2011, 04:34 PM
Post: #39
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(01/05/2011 12:13 AM)filbert Wrote: I dunno, I'm starting to really dislike this model of Bowser. As mentioned frequently before, the heavy armor is really polarizing. That's just annoying. The thing about these ideas is that they seem clever at first, but after a while, they just become annoying. Agreed |
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02/16/2011, 01:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 02/17/2011 02:34 PM by Isaac.)
Post: #40
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I agree the HA bowser has wasn't extremely well thought out... but i definitely think it's in the right direction Bowser SHOULD be tanking like a boss. Why? He is a boss! The final boss. However what he has now dictates simplistic playstyles and predictable goals. He SHOULD have heavy armor, just far less. Something like 3-5% would be ideal. I've seen this idea suggested before and it was dismissed as too little. But I don't agree... he can tank the multi-hit attacks which he has so much trouble with. Also jab cancels are VERY annoying for bigger characters like him, especially on the ledge as it eventually forces them to try to recover, and possibly get gimped. And then, he should have more heavy armor when attacking. But only on certain moves. Moves i think he should have more HA on. Mildly more: Nair Bair Upsmash Much more: Fsmash Dsmash Nair and Dsmash mainly because he goes into his shell and should therefore have more heavy armor. But also because they are his best combo breakers in their respective areas. And he NEEDS combo breakers. Usmash mainly cause he goes into his shell again... Bair because he's hitting people WITH his shell, i wish we could control where the HA was but even without controlling it, it makes sense. And Fsmash... so he can tank through the walls people try to make for him. This should be when he has the MOST HA. It'll be his best punish move, especially against combo heavy chars to generally start with moves which would just barely get over his HA. |
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