(09/21/2012 05:51 PM)Bullet Bill Wrote: [ -> ] (09/21/2012 05:33 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]Snake is good. His B moves are unnecessary, except UpB, they are more of a bonus. Try using Snakes 1st or 2nd hit of nair as you would Falcon's 1st hit of nair. Same with Dair. Jab is great tool for snake to grab, UpB can be used for more than just OoS, utilt is a great move. dtilt.. I personally don't use it much, Bair and Uair are very strong finishers and edgeguards.
Stick a C4 if possible.
Snake's B moves are most definitely necessary. The grenades are still a very good projectile and C4 sticks are basically essential to Snakes game. You can't play him effectively by just using aerials
Also, I still think too many people are assuming fox is the best PM character and forgetting about Lucario
Hence, I said his UpB and C4 are really good. Grenade being unnecessary as in he doesn't need them for anything other than defense and using it for offense is just a nice little trick. Helps with zoning and moving your opponent away from you or
towards you.
Grenade isn't used to kill. It can be used for stylin' UpB tricks but C4 is easier.
Side B isn't used much depending on MU. It
does rape a recovering Ganon/Falcon and a few others, but it's not really good at high level and shouldn't be used when you and your opponent are both on stage.
C4 is godly.
Cypher is also godly. But people overate it's priority if you're off stage, that thing won't save you from attacks.
(09/21/2012 06:24 PM)OkamiBW Wrote: [ -> ]I was curious as to who qualifies as an "educated" player too, lol.
Fox really doesn't feel as though he has any bad match-ups. They don't seem as heavily in his favor largely due to him not being as fast as Melee, but regardless, nothing feels uphill.
Lucario on the other hand feels as though he has bad match-ups. Lucario vs Peach feels like its in Peach's favor, at least from my end of it (Peach). I'm not exactly sure why, but DK vs Lucario feels in DK's favor too. DK's got a guaranteed Cargo U-throw U-air kill even at like 150%. B-air's got a lot of range against Lucario too.
I agree with DK/Lucario MU. It seems that DK can handle Lucario's
anything
(09/21/2012 06:55 PM)Professor Pro Wrote: [ -> ]Im sorry, but Lucario is the best in the game, no other character in Smash History has ever had the features he has, it's the OHC cancel mix with Supers and command grabs which make him ridiculous.
It does require a great amount of tech skill to be able to pull it off his bullshiz but play someone who understand how to use the character like Fuzzyness and see Leffen's Lucario on youtube and you'll start to understand how silly Lucario actually is
And btw with your comment about Lucario losing to Peach, I just want to let you know that Leffen's Lucario has been beating Armada's Peach....so yeah, that's a big sign for things to come lol.
Armada went towards Pit in PM this time around, at least from last time I heard. His PM Peach might not be up to par. Any little difference from the conversion from Melee to PM is a big difference.
*Looks at everyone complaining about Fox and Falco*
Last two posts are making me laugh so hard in rl (minus club's post)
(09/19/2012 02:34 PM)Eli Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with the idea that people might not play this game if spacies were different or nerfed. I think anybody that has that mindset will almost always choose melee over P:M. Regardless of whether or not they enjoy P:M to some degree.
Well, I have a problem with that mentality. And anyone who wants P:M to succeed and stand on it's own two feet should have a problem with that too.
"Because melee" will always hold this game back.
^Amen.
(09/19/2012 02:34 PM)Eli Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with the idea that people might not play this game if spacies were different or nerfed. I think anybody that has that mindset will almost always choose melee over P:M. Regardless of whether or not they enjoy P:M to some degree.
Well, I have a problem with that mentality. And anyone who wants P:M to succeed and stand on it's own two feet should have a problem with that too.
"Because melee" will always hold this game back.
Yep. Except I don't have a problem with that mentality; like whatever you want. Just don't prevent this fun game from becoming more.
i don't really see the reason the spacies would need to be changed?
(09/21/2012 11:35 PM)oksasoglu Wrote: [ -> ]i don't really see the reason the spacies would need to be changed?
Even though they are in S tier they don't dominate the way Brawl's S tier class did.
"I disagree with the idea that people might not play this game if spacies were different or nerfed. I think anybody that has that mindset will almost always choose melee over P:M. Regardless of whether or not they enjoy P:M to some degree."
As I said, these are two completely separate mentalities and one does not imply or cause the other. In fact, I know for sure this isn't the case because I am the proof against this. I do not want spacies nerfed at all, not even a little bit. I also think P:M is already a better game than Melee is and when given the choice between the two would choose P:M every time.
So yeah, this is literally just not true at all.
^this man speaks the truth
What I was saying there is that there may be a group of people who main spacies in melee.
Of this group of people that main spacies in melee, they don't want spacies changed/nerfed in any way at all, even to PAL.
Now, if these same people say things like "I won't play P:M if Fox/Falco are changed or different in any way", then these same people have almost no reason to choose P:M over melee.
You can say things like "Okay, well they may be interested in fighting against new characters", but that's as far as it really goes.
That was the point I was making.
I was not saying that people who don't want spacies nerfed like melee better than P:M.
Fighting against new characters, using some new techniques, on new stages, with new looks, and always having the option to switch to a new character between games since the Spacies no longer dominate or tie all matchups.
But that's like... Nothing, pretty much.[/sarcasm]
Hey genius, if they say something like "I won't play P:M if spacies are different", they're obviously not using other characters.
Oh... I guess I figured that was pretty obvious so I didn't think you were stating that. lol
Aight, we're in agreement on that then.
But those aren't the only people that don't want the Spacies changed.
(09/22/2012 12:10 AM)Spam_arrows Wrote: [ -> ]Even though they are in S tier they don't dominate the way Brawl's S tier class did.
There is practically only one character in vBrawl's S Tier...
(09/22/2012 01:20 AM)DrinkingFood Wrote: [ -> ]Spacies no longer dominate or tie all matchups.
Umm, could you please list one MU that Fox doesn't win or tie, i.e. a MU where he loses?
(09/22/2012 01:52 AM)DrinkingFood Wrote: [ -> ]But those aren't the only people that don't want the Spacies changed.
Really now? Who else wouldn't want the spacees changed other than those who think that P:M would be worse off if they were changed, a.k.a. the ones that Eli referred to.
1: I'm talking about in P:M. If you understood that, then I'd say Bowser beats fox. But this isn't a matchup thread. Take it to the fox forums and ask them.
2: I'm referring to the people that wouldn't play P:M if Spacies were nerfed, which is who he was talking about. THOSE aren't the only people. I'm someone who won't stop playing P:M even if they spacies are PAL. But I will probably stop playing Falco. I don't want him nerfed.
Again, you misunderstand my post. Every damn time.
A matchup Fox loses? imo,
Mario, Lucario and Zelda are the only three characters that are bad for Fox. And I'm not 100% on Lucario or Zelda.
But Mario definitely goes positive against Fox. His d-air beats just about everything Fox has to throw, and you can get a grab off the attack, and Mario still has an incredibly easy chainthrow against Fox. Top that off with his grabs starting combos and the fact that Mario is the combo king, being able to combo even most of the lighter characters. Mario is also much harder to kill now. With his cape, rising tornado, and his super coin jump he can prevent himself from being shinespiked twice in a row and can even land on the stage if the ledge is occupied. He also lives long against Fox's u-smash on stages with high ceilings.
Top this all off with the fact that Fox is easy to gimp, and made easier to gimp with the cape. These are Mario's advantages against Fox simplified, and I'm sure people can think of more.
>Mario, Lucario, and Zelda
>two characters
2characters/3characters = 2/3rds of a character per character
We maths now
Lol. I only originally had Mario and Zelda then went back to edit Lucario in. Let's fix that.
Definitely agree about Mario beating Fox
(09/22/2012 05:35 AM)DrinkingFood Wrote: [ -> ]1: I'm talking about in P:M. If you understood that, then I'd say Bowser beats fox. But this isn't a matchup thread. Take it to the fox forums and ask them.
2: I'm referring to the people that wouldn't play P:M if Spacies were nerfed, which is who he was talking about. THOSE aren't the only people. I'm someone who won't stop playing P:M even if they spacies are PAL. But I will probably stop playing Falco. I don't want him nerfed.
Again, you misunderstand my post. Every damn time.
Jeez, don't get all emotional on me! I completely understood your first point to begin with and I asked you to clarify your second point, so I don't see any misunderstanding here.
Anyway, about matchups:
(09/19/2012 04:11 PM)Eli Wrote: [ -> ]Tier lists should really come down to matchups.
We can't really discuss tier lists if we don't agree on MUs, so we might as well discuss MUs while we're at it.
(09/22/2012 05:43 AM)B.W. Wrote: [ -> ]A matchup Fox loses? imo,
Mario, Lucario and Zelda are the only three characters that are bad for Fox. And I'm not 100% on Lucario or Zelda.
Yeah, I wouldn't place my bets on Lucario or Zelda either, not yet anyway...
IMO, Lucario vs Fox boils down to who hits who first and Fox's defensive game makes getting in with Lucario really difficult. Lucario has 0-to-deaths on Fox, but good luck getting a hit on him.