Smash Mods

I hope Dedede get's up there.

(06/22/2012 06:36 PM)`daze Wrote: [ -> ]Sure. If they prove to be solid characters through tourney victories, then they deserve a higher placing than I initially thought.

this logic doesnt work... leffen just won a tournament with melee ness. Still a god awful character, but leffen is a much better player.

Ike takes some getting used to before you can beat him, imo that's the only reason he has won more tournaments than any other character

Sonic has won a tournament. Why is he so low?

And ROB and Link have a lot of 2nd placings

edit: nvm I can't read.

(06/23/2012 09:00 AM)Jolteon Wrote: [ -> ]edit: nvm I can't read.

haha i changed it cause i'm not suggesting ike is a bad character. He is just easy to use against inexperienced players.

In time he will drop down the tier lists (imo)

(06/23/2012 08:57 AM)JCaesar Wrote: [ -> ]Sonic has won a tournament. Why is he so low?

And ROB and Link have a lot of 2nd placings

Oh really? Which tournament was that? I wasn't aware.

And most of the tournaments you play, you end up using multiple characters for specific match ups. For that reason, the placings of those characters are less significant since you didn't end up using just one to place high in a tournament, they were "working together". Like if someone used ONLY GaW to win a tournament, it would be significantly more meaningful than if someone used GAW, wario, pikachu, mario, link, fox, luigi, and sheik since GaW didn't win the tournament on his own.

Seems like you just use link when you play against cmart's bowser or someone who suffers from projectiles and range y'know?

But yeah I wasn't aware of that sonic had a tournament victory under his belt, I might update my list if you can throw down a link for me.

The tournament standings really aren't worth shit. Right now, it's impossible to tell which characters hold better ground than others. When Melee first came out, Falcon was largely considered too crazy to be viable in competitive play. It wasn't really until Isai started dominating with him that this was proven to be false. Similar developments could easily happen if more people actually gave two shits about the project.

(06/23/2012 01:14 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]The tournament standings really aren't worth shit. Right now, it's impossible to tell which characters hold better ground than others. When Melee first came out, Falcon was largely considered too crazy to be viable in competitive play. It wasn't really until Isai started dominating with him that this was proven to be false. Similar developments could easily happen if more people actually gave two shits about the project.

This about sums up how I feel. Tier list speculation is no more than how convinced each character has made you based on what you've seen. It's all pretty subjective right now.

(06/23/2012 12:56 PM)`daze Wrote: [ -> ]

(06/23/2012 08:57 AM)JCaesar Wrote: [ -> ]Sonic has won a tournament. Why is he so low?

And ROB and Link have a lot of 2nd placings

Oh really? Which tournament was that? I wasn't aware.

And most of the tournaments you play, you end up using multiple characters for specific match ups. For that reason, the placings of those characters are less significant since you didn't end up using just one to place high in a tournament, they were "working together". Like if someone used ONLY GaW to win a tournament, it would be significantly more meaningful than if someone used GAW, wario, pikachu, mario, link, fox, luigi, and sheik since GaW didn't win the tournament on his own.

Seems like you just use link when you play against cmart's bowser or someone who suffers from projectiles and range y'know?

But yeah I wasn't aware of that sonic had a tournament victory under his belt, I might update my list if you can throw down a link for me.

Did you not even look at the Tournament Results thread? I don't see how you could propose to make a remotely accurate tier list without it.

Oh, without a doubt.

A true tier list won't be able to be made until maybe a year or so after the game has been released. There's no doubt about that!
I'm just saying I take tournament results into consideration when creating mock tierlists. I also take in many other factors (some of which have more prevalence over tournament placings.) This includes, researching MUs through videos and observations, general playtesting with all the characters with/ against high level melee players in my area (meaning between myself and many top smashers in BC, we have playtested every character significantly to try to understand them better), as well as gathering the opinions of many high level smashers with solid understanding of the game.

I think the list I created is generally accurate- at least at this point in time.

It's just something I created for fun in my own time. It is NOT the be-all, end-all of P:M tier lists! We have quite the road ahead of us before we arrive at a semi-accurate understanding of the game.

edit:
I did look at that thread, JC. I only looked at the last two pages though because after scanning through the first page it seemed like the tournaments posted there were outdated versions/ wifi tournaments etc etc so I just skipped to the 3rd and forth pages where the more recent tournament results would've been posted. As a result, I missed sethlon's win with sonic at Bowsers Revenge.

Sonic probably won't raise much higher though. (My) Tier placings aren't really determined so much by tournament placing in my tier list as they are MU-wise. And Sonic has a ton of bad MUs from what I've observed. Toon Link hasn't been dominating the tournament scene, but he has plenty of good MUs and only has maybe 2-3 really terrible MUs, just for example. Still, those tournament results are something to consider and I'll keep that in mind when I update my tier list after my tournament today. I'll have more data by then anyway.

I'll update my list when I have time later today or tomorrow. I have to get running because I'll be hosting a tournament of my own in BC in a few hours ^_^

People still think in tier lists? dafuq

yeah. trying to craft/explain tier lists seems silly. a matchup chart seems infinitely more useful.

Well, this thread did merely start to satiate my curiosity. I never intended for people to use/take it seriously.

Yeah this thread was supposed to be a "what's your opinion" thread.

We won't really even be able to fully talk about match-ups until much later anyway.

lol u guys

Alright, I looked at all the tournament results from that thread and counted each time a character has placed in the top 4 (or top 3 if it's only a 5 person tournament or whatever). It just goes to show that tournament results don't really mean very much right now..

Mario(11) [placed in the top 4 11 times]
Marth(11)
Falco (10)
Ike(9)
Sheik(8)
Bowser(7)
Fox(6)
Link(6)
Ganon(5)
Lucario/Peach/DK/Wario/ROB (4)
Sheilda/ Zelda/ Wolf/ Falcon/ Luigi/ Ness (3)
DDD/ Snake (2)
Puff/ Lucas/ Pit (1)
Toon Link (0)

Take what you will from that, but those are the amount of times a said character has placed in the top 4. Kinda shows how little tournament results mean at this point.

BTW I don't know why everyone's complaining about MY list when this is a thread that you post your own tier lists in. Like, I thought this thread was the place to post your own tier list to see everyone's opinions.. not a place where everyone argues why their opinions are wrong lol.
It's impossible to create a real tier list at this point in time. It's just fun to speculate. Chill.

With that being said, I've revised my tier list.

Top Tier

S Tier
Fox
Shielda

A Tier
Falco
Sheik
Zelda
Mario
Peach
Ike
Ganon
Puff
Marth
Wolf
Falcon
Lucario

High Tier

B Tier
Pikachu
DK
Toon Link
Lucas
Link
Luigi
Wario
DDD
Bowser
Pit

High/ Mid Tier

C Tier
Ness
Sonic
Snake
ROB
Charizard
GW

_______
Ike



_______
Most everyone

Wanted to use more fun tier images :*(

Match up Chart

30-70
> Everyone

Current Criticism

Results won't be anything close to a reflection of the metagame for a while since no one is blatantly dominant like MK.

Take out MK from the Brawl tier lists and you'll see really crazy tier movement over time.

(06/25/2012 03:14 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]since no one is blatantly dominant like MK.

since no one is blatantly dominant like MK, besides of course Lucario.
*fixed*

Having no range, bad trades, unsafe shield pressure, and the worst whiffs in the game doesn't help Lucario very much. Lucario's like Suwako. If you don't know wtf to look out for you're going to get pressured from his BnB's and Aura Sphere cancels. Once you realise he is like -5 on block and almost all of his moves have startup to compensate their cancelability, he's a lot less frightening.

Lucario's cancels are going to do a lot less for him as the metagame marches past the initial coolness of them. He's going to have to rely a lot more on hard spacing to stay as "safe" as he appears to be to an untrained eye, and his Up-Super is more than likely going to be his most important tool to keep him alive as he works hard for kills, while his Side-Super will be the next most vital, by getting low-percent kills to even the odds. Down-Special "Rapid Cancels" are situational and mostly important for when you fuck up spacing against a shield, or in TAS combos I guess.

Lucario is not the scary Jackal you make him out to be and was one of the characters who had their balance and execution worked on the hardest by the PMBR.

You have no idea how hard that last sentence was to word.

---

Some beta versions of that sentence:

... and was one of the characters whose balance and execution the PMBR worked the hardest on. (Scrapped for ending in a preposition)

... and was one of the characters, the balance and execution of whom, the PMBR worked the hardest on. (Two objects of preposition made it hard to change the position of "on")

... and was one of the characters on whose balance and execution the PMBR worked the hardest. (Awkward wording)