Smash Mods

(08/19/2012 04:42 PM)Eli Wrote: [ -> ]I think you formulate an opinion about Luigi like "he can't approach", then if anything is generated in opposition such as Luigi getting approaches on Link, it's automatically Link's fault. No matter what, you win.

Nah, I was saying it's your fault.

Quote:I don't have much exp fighting Zelda or Peach, but as for Marth.... Marth is a really amazing character overall, so sure Luigi could have issues approaching him. I'd just think it really is only a problem if you try approaching from the air. On the ground, you just space fireballs and ftilts.

Zelda is definitely harder to approach than Marth, probably Peach is, too. Zelda can actually control how you approach, she's extremely difficult to combo, and her hitboxes are all wacky and impossible to beat.

Quote:As for the me not playing Link correct thing.... All I have to say about that is that in the particular match you linked, Vist outplayed me. He played extremely well. Also, I didn't even know how to AGT at the time of that tournament. What it comes down to (and try not to take offense to this next thing I'm about to say) is that I believe there are 2 kinds of smashers:
1) Those who theory-craft on the boards constantly
2) Those who win tournaments

Lolz, I don't take offense, actually. I'm neither, tbh. I play the game quite frequently with decent players. I usually don't say something on these boards unless I've explicitly done it or seen it myself. If I do, I tend to add a disclaimer. However, I would like to warn against having an elitist attitude towards those who can't attend as many tourneys as certain others. There are plenty of people that are good at this game who are unable to make it to large or notable tournaments.

Fireballs and Nair should beat out any Din mines, I don't really see how Zelda controls how you approach if your character can easily work around the tools with which she does so.

Sorry, I forgot to add the word "can" there.
Those who can win tournaments.

And I'm not even close to elitist, don't get the wrong idea.... I just think that all this tier list speculation thread is filled with a bunch of theories that have little practical significance. Until this game has been out for like 2 years or so in it's current build, with many tournament results factored in.... I don't see how anybody could be so intuitive as to say things like "Luigi can't approach", and link 1 match of me vs. Vist as proof.

(08/19/2012 06:10 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]Fireballs and Nair should beat out any Din mines, I don't really see how Zelda controls how you approach if your character can easily work around the tools with which she does so.

I'd like to see how a Luigi could expect to take care of the mines with fireballs when Zelda can put out mines faster than Luigi can shoot out fireballs and she can use them a lot better, too. He'd better be shooting those balls from a distance, too, 'cause Zelda can easily use her ridiculous hitboxes to take him out if he's anywhere close to them. Not too useful for approaching if you ask me.

Nair is definitely not an option. The moment Luigi takes to the air, he's out of his element. If he nairs every time a mine blocks his way, Zelda can just reach out with....anything and punish him hard.

Zelda's Din wall is hard to deal with 'cause if you commit to attacking them, she can easily punish you for the effort by striking through her own wall. In Melee, I often take advantage of people (especially Marths) trying to attack my missiles so I get a free approach.

Edit: And Zelda can usually refresh her wall faster than many can take it down. I usually find it easier to just work around it, although that is practically playing right into Zelda's hands.

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(08/19/2012 06:28 PM)Eli Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, I forgot to add the word "can" there.
Those who can win tournaments.

And I'm not even close to elitist, don't get the wrong idea.... I just think that all this tier list speculation thread is filled with a bunch of theories that have little practical significance. Until this game has been out for like 2 years or so in it's current build, with many tournament results factored in.... I don't see how anybody could be so intuitive as to say things like "Luigi can't approach", and link 1 match of me vs. Vist as proof.

Point taken. Don't worry, I am listing tourney results as major proof in my arguments and I am very aware that many of my opinions may be wrong. I just like to take a clear stance for discussion's sake, so that progress can be made.

(08/19/2012 04:49 PM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]Luigi gets in on Ganon like crazy, Idk wtf you're talking about, yo. The guy runs in circles around Ganon.

I play ganon pretty damn well and eli makes luigi look like god on crack, and I keep him out pretty well.
Ftilt mang
Hyah hyah hyah
Obviously, Eli and I are the pinnacle of human smashing. Fucking obviously.

So are you saying that Ganon is decent at keeping Luigi out of his personal space? Also, what is your opinion on Zelda's wall pertaining to Luigi? I really don't think Kink's suggestion of 'nairing through Din's Fire' is gonna be too helpful, not when he has to stop moving just to deal with a couple mines.

(08/22/2012 05:30 AM)Hyperception Wrote: [ -> ]

(08/19/2012 04:49 PM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]Luigi gets in on Ganon like crazy, Idk wtf you're talking about, yo. The guy runs in circles around Ganon.

I play ganon pretty damn well and eli makes luigi look like god on crack, and I keep him out pretty well.
Ftilt mang
Hyah hyah hyah
Obviously, Eli and I are the pinnacle of human smashing. Fucking obviously.

Duhhh! Ftilt is like... amg good. Idk I think once the Lou starts baiting your ftilts it gets pretty annoying.

Aww man, now I wanna play Luigi.

On a related note, I was just linked an interesting article by a friend: http://shoryuken.com/2012/08/21/thinking...-resource/

The article basically posits that "top tier" ultimately means "the character with the most options", vaguely put. I have to say, it's a very simple point that explains a lot of complexity and it makes sense. Much like how smash is a very simple game in concept, but its simplicity has given birth to such complexity. It's beautiful, really. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

The existence of pivot grabs hurt characters that try to approach from the ground and/or have weak horizontal aerial mobility.

Approach from the ground and have weak horizontal aerial mobility = Luigi
Approach from the ground = Samus
Weak horizontal aerial mobility = Kirby

So my powers of extrapolation tell me that you're talking about these chars. I agree of course.

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(08/22/2012 01:00 PM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]Idk I think once the Lou starts baiting your ftilts it gets pretty annoying.

Perhaps, but Ganon's ftilt is mad quick and it reaches faaar. It's gonna be hard to "bait" that thing. I mean, I'd throw it out freely, whether I was being baited or not.

Quote:On a related note, I was just linked an interesting article by a friend: http://shoryuken.com/2012/08/21/thinking...-resource/

The article basically posits that "top tier" ultimately means "the character with the most options", vaguely put. I have to say, it's a very simple point that explains a lot of complexity and it makes sense. Much like how smash is a very simple game in concept, but its simplicity has given birth to such complexity. It's beautiful, really. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Good stuff and very true. Complexity in simplicity is awesome and that's exactly what Smash is. Top tier does tend to be the character with the most options, but I think there was at least one exception in both Melee (Jiggs) and vBrawl (ICs). Maybe it sounds crazy, but hear me out:

Jiggs was incredibly simplistic, imo, but whatever she did, she did extremely well. Recovery was a piece of cake, gimping was as easy as pie, and she had combos into rest on a large portion of the cast, but when one looks at her play at neutral, he realizes that Jiggs just plays extremely defensively and punishes others for what they do. It's really an extremely linear play-style that is consolidated by her unique traits. I would even go so far as to say that Puff can't play aggressively, because she lacks the number of options that the rest of Top Tier has.

As for the ICs, well, they're actually not that good once you get past their grab-game. As actual characters, their design is pretty flawed. Their hammers sourspot easily if you're too close, their moves are a tad on the slow side, their recovery is only decent when there are two of them, they're really not well-designed chars which can be proven when one can force them into situations where they can't grab you or when someone actually manages to separate them. Of course, they have a couple un-loseable MUs 'cause they can wall Ganon and Bowser out with a single move (Blizzard) and then proceed to CG them to death, but once one removes the OP grabs from the picture so that a more wholesome view of the char may be had, he can see all the holes and lack of options that the ICs actually have, hence their ever-present need to go for the grab always.

This is all just my personal opinion of course, so take it with a grain of salt.

Luigi is a fun character to play, Short hop Double Aerials mang.

(08/22/2012 01:00 PM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]Duhhh! Ftilt is like... amg good. Idk I think once the Lou starts baiting your ftilts it gets pretty annoying.

What do you mean

I think he means that Luigi can bait Ganon's ftilts and punish them. However, I am inclined to disagree with him, given the speed and range of Ganon's ftilt.

(08/22/2012 04:28 PM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Good stuff and very true. Complexity in simplicity is awesome and that's exactly what Smash is. Top tier does tend to be the character with the most options, but I think there was at least one exception in both Melee (Jiggs) and vBrawl (ICs). Maybe it sounds crazy...

No, it doesn't sound crazy. I do agree that there are exceptions. If a character can only do one thing but he does it so ****ing well then... yeah, it reasons to say that he doesn't need to do anything else to do well.

Top Tier is full of characters that can safely attack with little risk of a countermeasure if done properly, characters who tend to get a disproportionately large amount of reward for a successful single hit than the characters they face, and characters who have, themselves, a countermeasure to most attacks from their opponent. The complexity or simplicity of their meta has nothing to do with their success as a character after a certain player level gap. Fox's complicated, mindgame heavy will-he-or-won't-he approach is, under its surface, a method of safely keeping himself from overextending and using decision making skills to decide when the best time to attack would be (It's best done with moves that can come out from what you're doing before 12 frames, to circumvent human reaction time).

This is why Jiggz in high tier.

Because bair

It's like watching paint bair.

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(08/23/2012 12:27 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]Top Tier is full of characters that can safely...

Quote:attack with little risk of a countermeasure if done properly

Spacees

Quote:characters who tend to get a disproportionately large amount of reward for a successful single hit than the characters they face

Lucario and Ike

Quote:and characters who have, themselves, a countermeasure to most attacks from their opponent.

Jiggs, Peach, and Sheilda

Alright, Top Tier is set.

Quote:The complexity or simplicity of their meta has nothing to do with their success as a character after a certain player level gap. Fox's complicated, mindgame heavy will-he-or-won't-he approach is, under its surface, a method of safely keeping himself from overextending and using decision making skills to decide when the best time to attack would be (It's best done with moves that can come out from what you're doing before 12 frames, to circumvent human reaction time).

I agree with most of this, but the only reason the bolded part above is even possible is because of Fox's success as a character. Fox has NO attacks that come out later than frame 12. His usmash comes out on frame 7. His slowest move, fsmash, comes out on frame 12. In other words, all of Fox's moveset is nearly too fast to react to.

Edit: Alright, I'm wrong, his Illusion and his Firefox come out later than frame 12. Surely this means he's not an extremely fast char.

Edit 2: Oh, and his dash grab comes out on frame 12, as well. My, my...

(08/22/2012 09:13 PM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]I think he means that Luigi can bait Ganon's ftilts and punish them. However, I am inclined to disagree with him, given the speed and range of Ganon's ftilt.

Hence my apprehension

Also I have no opinion on the Zelda matchup because I don't talk about characters I don't understand. Except Charizard.

(08/23/2012 12:27 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]Top Tier is full of characters that can safely attack with little risk of a countermeasure if done properly, characters who tend to get a disproportionately large amount of reward for a successful single hit than the characters they face, and characters who have, themselves, a countermeasure to most attacks from their opponent. The complexity or simplicity of their meta has nothing to do with their success as a character after a certain player level gap. Fox's complicated, mindgame heavy will-he-or-won't-he approach is, under its surface, a method of safely keeping himself from overextending and using decision making skills to decide when the best time to attack would be (It's best done with moves that can come out from what you're doing before 12 frames, to circumvent human reaction time).

Nobody said the complexity birthed from their simplicity had anything to do with it. It's the fact that these characters have options. Obviously, Fox should come to mind first when you think of options. He just has all of the tools he needs to win against just about any opponent. He has the combo tools, the mobility, the kill moves, the gimps, a projectile, he's difficult to grab, he's got the grab game, he's got fast, strong attacks with little landing/cooldown lag, he's got a solid recovery... he has multiple options in almost any given situation of pressure he might be under, and those options are viable and they give him opportunities that other characters don't have. This is the reason I was citing for a high-tier character being what they are. With all these options at his disposal, the game is played how Fox wants it to be played.

In the case of Jigglypuff, she has less options but her options are more potent than others. That's why she is a pseudo-exception, in my mind. It's still options that she has.

A character without options? Let's take Charizard. He's being shield pressured by Falco. His options are:
-Spot dodge, and then be easily punished.
-Buffer a roll, and have a decent chance at being punished if the Falco is on.
-Aerial OOS? Nope.
-Up+B OOS if the Falco has really high damage. Otherwise, Zard will be punished before he hits the ground.
-Grab? Too slow. Shine gets in.
-WD OOS? Uhh no. Too slow, and Zard is way too big.

One option, buffering a roll, is the only one Falco has to account for. He doesn't have to worry about getting hit by a nair oos because it's too slow. He doesn't have to worry about a grab for the same reason. If Zard spot dodges, he's just going to get hit by your flurry of dairs, nairs and shines anyway when he recovers. And Up+B is pretty much a "so what, he hits me and then he's vulnerable, so I keep doing what I was doing."

And that is an example of why Charizard (while such a cool character, I love him. I really do.) will never reach even the midpoint of the tier list as his character stands as of 2.1. I think we're all in agreement there, though. But again, I do agree with that article. Options are what matter here.

iirc all standing grabs grab on the same frames except for maybe some tether grabs.
But if you're saying it's too slow just in reference to the speed of Falco's shine, then that's fine. The same applies to everybody though lol.