Smash Mods

So what would a Bowser Link MU on SV be?

I know Link normally has advantage but in a SV scene what happens.

If the match-up is anything like Melee, Link will have the advantage again.

Link's projectiles are overall more effective and move faster. Link won the match-up in Melee due to more power and more range. All of this is still true in P:M. They're both buffed pretty much evenly too.

Link rapes Bowser, stage doesn't make much of a difference

Cmart, u guys still do fests on Tuesday's in Bmore? If so I'll try and make one next month when I go on leave. Want to play and JCeaser.

(07/23/2012 02:22 AM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just explaining. I won't fall into the deep abyss of argument unless its something new and legit.

As for Link vs TLink.

Who would say the MU on this is even? Imo, whoever gets the gets hit first will probably die.

I really dislike matchup discussion in this thread. Keep that stuff in the character boards. Discuss general matchup spreads for characters, not individual matchups. The Link T.Link matchup does not matter in regards to which is the better character compared to the whole of the cast.

(07/22/2012 01:55 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]He's just humble ^^ I heard him say that myself. Yet he messes any other Fox that isn't Mango.

And he messes Mango up. Bahahaha.

This is largely because Mango lacks the patience of HBox or PeePee and has a tendency of running into hits. Even PeePee acknowledges this. Just like Ken and M2K with their Marth's, when a player dominates with a character, opinions about that character get skewed. I suspect if Mango truly dedicated time to slowing his Fox down and playing a very simple game, he'd catch up with Armada quickly. Fox beats peach even with her new AGT trixsies.

As for the Toon Link and Link discussion, I believe Link's greater reach and power help him out right now more than TL's speed. The current release features loads of heavy characters that he can zone easily. I see TL becoming slightly more viable as characters like Diddy, MK, and ZSS outspeed Link.

I think Link is a more diverse character with better matchups than TLink. His range and weight give him much better survivability. I think TLink has better matchups against more close range characters (eg. Lucario), but his strengths are more niche value than Links.

(07/23/2012 12:40 AM)Jockmaster Wrote: [ -> ]Bamesy, it seems like your entire argument is based on the assumption of perfection by both players and a complete lack of mindgames or deception. You can say "oh well Fox doesn't need mindgames, he can just do stuff", but that doesn't make Ganon a gimmick because he can't just run in there.

It's simply an alternate playstyle. A "gimmick" in competitive gaming terminology is a technique or approach that is unusual and unwieldy to use and is easy to stop once predicted, but can reap high reward if successful.

I was saying perfect play (or rather, top level play where risks aren't taken, like when getting hit by a Fair isn't worth it) on a human level.
With mindgames and all that, Ganon still falls behind because he's forced to make a move and close the gap, not just once, but continuously, just because he's Ganon.
This means he makes the first move, a move that can be accordingly responded to, properly. He has no way of forcing people to adjust NOT accordingly.
Hence it CAN be avoided, no matter what he does. This is the perspective of the character by many people, including the majority of top level players over the last couple years.
That make sense?

That second paragraph describes Ganon, at a human level.
Are you saying that IS a gimmick, or isn't?
Ganon is slow. He can pretend to be fast (as Kink put it) but he's slow. Things like Hbox vs Kage happen, and that's a really easy way to see it.

(07/23/2012 01:44 AM)MachGO! Wrote: [ -> ]overwhelming.

And you are also still justifying your posts by saying you were trying to help, and still making conclusions and inferences about a discussion you weren't part of.

I will say this once: the discussion between me and Bubbaking was extremely simple and never required your input. You want to know why it lingered? Its because we disagreed on the matter of discussion. This is how all arguments continue.

Also, if you were actually trying to help, you would have addressed us simultaneously and exposed the plausability of both of us being right in the realm of our argument. Not denouncing our reasoning on individual levels without even acknowledging the main idea of our specific argument.

I thought/stated that it might but wasn't meant to, sorry you feel that way.
That first part isn't happening, the second part is why I intervened, sorry you feel that way.
I simply pointed out another factor in where the disagreement was coming from.
I did, and he responded earlier then it was over. Ours is the one that lingered, if he did this, the conversation would still be going with him too, for sure.
:/

(07/23/2012 09:57 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]This is largely because Mango lacks the patience of HBox or PeePee and has a tendency of running into hits. Even PeePee acknowledges this. Just like Ken and M2K with their Marth's, when a player dominates with a character, opinions about that character get skewed. I suspect if Mango truly dedicated time to slowing his Fox down and playing a very simple game, he'd catch up with Armada quickly.

He did take the time to do that, but the crowd gets to him too easily. Why be patient when HYPE HYPE HYPE haha. He loves pleasing the crowd with crazy stuff too much, and seems to rather have people go 'did you see THAT?' then win. Hence when he 'was' the best in the world, for a long time he lulzed around and didn't go for winning tourneys, and why playing things like Mario and Falcon were easy to please crowds with.
Basic stuff.

(07/23/2012 01:26 PM)Jockmaster Wrote: [ -> ]I think Link is a more diverse character with better matchups than TLink. His range and weight give him much better survivability. I think TLink has better matchups against more close range characters (eg. Lucario), but his strengths are more niche value than Links.

This is good Tier List discussion for those 2.

So what out-weighs what, MORE. Links good and bad match-ups OVERALL, or TLs 'better' and 'worse' match-ups OVERALL?

It can't be TOO far off from each other. They are really well balanced.
Man, the devs PWNED making this game good. XD


As the talk seems to be going, TL will probably have a few really tough match-ups, where Link really won't. TL however will likely have match-ups some characters get 'mildly' crushed in, where Link won't be able to 'crush as many'. He'll crush some, but not enough diversity around it outside maybe Dedede, Bowser, Char stuff.


Ike stuff.
GW seems to fit this bill in a completely different way. Ike is slow, he's gonna have to spend a lot of time running away just so he CAN kill people at 80% without dying way before in a process of getting out-close-combated.
With GW, he'll probably spend a lot of time running away just to insure that he won't trade hits, and he can get the hits he REALLY wants so he can lead into 80% kills. Otherwise he'll just get crushed. Opinions that he's 'low' are understand-able in the sense that he'll have some really bad match-ups that he CAN'T avoid trading with/getting in with. Though when that super patient and precise play is developed (for the whole cast) then he might pull through completely fine. Completely fine meaning perfectly balanced.
He's a toughy, Ike is too.

(07/22/2012 12:49 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]Fox counters Peach, and Sheik, the most used character in PAL, also counters Peach. Armada uses Peach because he feels the most comfortable with her.

Don't forget: most Peaches agree that Marth is their hardest MU and thus, their best counter. This probably hasn't changed in P:M.

Quote:He also does not use Peach or Toon Link in PM because it "Is like, what's the point of playing a new game if you're just going to use the same character as before?"

Well, there's not really anything wrong w/ that IMO. Jolteon uses Ike in vBrawl and in P:M. Hungrybox uses Jiggs in Melee an P:M. Axe uses Pika in Melee and P:M. I just say, go with whatever playstyle pleases you. It may just be that a char's playstyle changed in going from Melee (or Brawl) to P:M. Tbh, TL and YL are different enough that the playstyle of one may deter someone who likes the playstyle of the other.

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(07/22/2012 02:09 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]He's also very arguably the best player in the game and beats Jigglypuff with Young Link.

It is arguable that, in Melee, YL counters Jiggs and that both Links counter Peach (in the soft sense).

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(07/22/2012 02:47 PM)Bamesy Wrote: [ -> ]This is a very accurate statement by Kink.
"Indeed, it doesn't take a whole bunch of people playing a char to show what the char is made of. As I said before, in vBrawl, Diddy rose to the #2 spot even though he was only really being played well by two people. I don't think having loads of Pikas will really show that Pika is better; it will just flesh out his meta faster."

...Actually, I said that. :-| No offense taken of course, just give credit where credit is due.

Edit: Oh, I didn't see this following post:

(07/22/2012 03:04 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]I think that was Bubbaking that said that Bamsey. Anyway, I agree with whoever made the post.

Anyway...

Quote:Right now, people are theorizing that Lucario is really good. Based on what they 'see' in his potential. Others see it differently. We don't need many Lucario's to see how good he is, we don't need 1 really good Lucario to see how good he is.

All we need, is to see what he's capable of very clearly. All RESULTS and experiences regarding Lucario are just for clarification or give more tools of discussion.

The same thing applies to ALL underdeveloped characters, under-played characters and character that have few really good players working with them. Pika, is one of them in Melee. Just because we don't many of the above 3 things as tools to see what he's capable of, we can still SEE if we see him clearly enough.

Edit Example : Once 1 AMAZING Lucario starts doing well, we'll get to see a lot of what Lucario REALLY is capable of. (all the stuff we could SEE beforehand, but never got to see in-game)
When another AMAZING Lucario comes along, we'll get to see a lot MORE of what Lucario is capable of. (Not the same stuff the OTHER Lucario can do, new stuff, but all stuff we could 'guess' beforehand)

I agree with a lot of this. We still have to make sure that we don't leave too much up to theory, though, even if it makes sense.

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(07/22/2012 07:40 PM)Bamesy Wrote: [ -> ]Why can't I merge posts?

I think it's cuz there was at least about an hour between each post (excluding edits). After about an hour, Smash Mods doesn't automatically merge consecutive posts into one post.

Wow, no activity today... -_-

Everyone's on the character idea submission thread today buddy.

I'll post something fruitful here soon enough.

Any idea why everyone is suddenly over there now?

Because they were posted yesterday. One of our mods came in and put in character idea submissions for each individual character that isn't in the current demo as of now.

Back to roots.

All tied within the given tier. (that's what the Alphabet is for)

Fox + Luigi + Peach + Pika + Sheilda
DK + Falco + Lucas + Marth + Pit + Sheik + Snake + Sonic + Wolf
Falcon + Jiggs + Link + Lucario + Mario + TL + Wario + Zelda
Bowser + Char + Dedede + Ganon + GW + Ike + Ness

They're all beast. I don't think there's a weak character...
So good and all fun in their own ways (can't play Dedede too much in tougher match-ups that he can get camped in though, if for serious that is).

Fine, Bubbaking said it.
What's 'bubba' anyway and why would you be the king of it?

I said what? :/ Btw, what's up bubba? I'm the king of bubbas.

This is a Bubba

This thread has gone to hell.

^I feel that the debate just became too subjective. We just need some solid results to be able to organize our thoughts on a tier list more effectively. You can only TheoryBros so much

I blame the character idea subforum.

Like I don't even want to go to that subforum because it is less discussion based than the old thread, but it drew traffic away from discussing the characters actually in the game anyway.

I've spent loads of time contemplating Pit since someone brought up he was considered a bit too low by the community. I'm not convinced he should move up to A-tier. I do, however, feel he may have potential to do well against many of the other B-tier characters.

This is referring to SFTP's tier list, BTW.