(07/18/2012 05:45 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]You can't count on someone pressing B so many times in a real match. Its possible to do it. But its more believable that you're not gonna get it every time, or even once in a match.
It's more possible to fathom someone playing perfectly than it is to fathom someone learning the timing to hit Sonic out of Standard B?
Or am I missing something here?
Shining isn't even the best solution to hitting him out of it to be honest. It is the best solution when he's trying to edgeguard you with it though.
Utilt and bair cut through it everytime LOLOLOL
It is certainly easy to react to an obvious homing attack. Such as when used to recovery.
But you know, if a sonic is doing obvious things all the time, then he doesn't know how to play the character.
The character's biggest differential to the rest of the cast is the amount of options he has on a single situation. The main difference of a bad and a good sonic, is that a bad sonic is very easy to react to.
(07/18/2012 06:16 PM)FireBall Stars Wrote: [ -> ]It is certainly easy to react to an obvious homing attack. Such as when used to recovery.
But you know, if a sonic is doing obvious things all the time, then he doesn't know how to play the character.
The character's biggest differential to the rest of the cast is the amount of options he has on a single situation. The main difference of a bad and a good sonic, is that a bad sonic is very easy to react to.
-___________-
so are you telling me that it's actually difficult to react to when Sonic's midair momentum slows down dramatically, and goes "WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"?
I actually mean REACT too I don't mean PREDICT. Reaction is like when someone throws something at your head and you duck out of the way since there seems to be alot of confusion =__=
When he does that, yes, it's easy to know.
But rarely a good sonic will throw a homing attack like that.
When recovering, only when it's his only option, because the attack is easy to intercept in that situation.
But you know, there are more ways to hit a homing attack on stage, and inumerous ways to bait an opening or a shield.
And well, when coupled with spinshot, sonic doesn't slow down when starting the homing attack, although the sound still happen, you can easily think that he's doing a downB or nair in that situation.
The move isn't for approach, any attack with good hitboxes will win over it, it is to confirm baits even at a good distance, even when you know that he will do that, it's impossible to do something if you are in the cooldown of some attack.
(07/18/2012 05:49 PM)Ryan-K Wrote: [ -> ]...everything in this game is muscle memory.
Homing attack has a very obvious tell to it so it's not like it's difficult to react to.
If your name is SilentWolf than everything is muscle memory.
Homing attack was sped up if you didn't know. And yes, his other attacks almost make the same sound.
(07/18/2012 06:08 PM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]It's more possible to fathom someone playing perfectly than it is to fathom someone learning the timing to hit Sonic out of Standard B?
Or am I missing something here?
Nope, that's pretty much it.
I think everyone is sleeping on Ness. he's not top tier for sure, but he isn't bottom tier. While he is held back by his recovery, so are characters like Falco and Toon link.
And before I accidentally turn into another argument over what makes a recovery good, I want to clarify. Falco's recovery is bad in that its distance is minimal. Ness's recovery is bad in that it is unsafe and predictable. However I think the benefit of Ness's longer distance is "better" then the advantage of the recovery mixups that Falco has.
Edit: forgot to mention the negative priority. vv Like, seriously.
Negative priority on PKT2 hurts a LOT too.
Despite having Ness as a secondary, I don't really know what to say about him.
U-smash missing at point blank is lulzy.
Ganon has limited options at all times, apparently someone said so.
Falcon can come in with any Aerial or even a lolzy dash attack.
Sorry for the really long post, guys! :'(
(07/17/2012 11:34 AM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]As far as Ike goes... he can literally just spam one move (fair) into shields and not get punished because of how much shield pushback the move has. He has enough time after his opponent shields his fair to easily jab in or run away or short hop and do it again. Aside from that, I don't think Ike is a very good character. But I do think his fair is a little too good in the sense that anyone can literally just pick the guy up and he plays himself.
The idea when fighting Ike is to PS the fair or dodge it completely. Cause it to whiff by DDing or spot-dodging. If you try to avoid it with a move that's too committing, like shielding or rolling, you'll end up giving him time to jab. This is a good strategy for trying to combat spammable things with low lag when the char also has possible followups with low startup.
(07/17/2012 12:10 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with the placement of many characters here. Not going to argue my points. I simply want to state that I see plenty of things wrong with this list.
That's perfectly fine. As I hope you've noticed by now, I'm a chap who likes discussion. Anyway, hopefully, you've noticed that I included write-ups for many of my placements and I plan on adding more. It's probably a good idea to read those and state your disagreements and how they relate to the tier list placings. Heck, there's still a lot of things I don't know and my opinion of a lot of characters right now is still being shaped. I'd love for other people's input and such.
About Ike, I really think as this game and its meta evolves, and people start to become more comfortable with fighting Ike, he's gonna drop down the tier list, kinda like what happened to Sheik in Melee. EIGHT tier lists had to be made before she was lowered from the #1 spot in that game. By that time, people had figured a bit of how to fight Sheik and realized that the Spacees were a much bigger threat. We just need more knowledge to be passed around for a while and Ike won't be such a big deal anymore. As of now, though, I think he's a high-level (not top-level, lolz) threat. Was watching some GF's between Jolteon, an Ike, and Professor Pro, a Wolf, and they showed me some scary things that he can easily do with little effort.
(07/17/2012 01:27 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]I might as well post my thoughts on a tier list. I agree with Kink on the Ike business.
S tier
-Fox
-Falco
-Sheik/Zelda
-Marth
A tier
-C.Falcon
-Wolf
-TLink
-Link
-Bowser
-Sonic
-Pikachu
-Mario
B tier
-Ike
-Snake
-Jigglypuff
-Lucario
-Peach
-Ganondorf
-Lucas
-Pit
-Luigi
-ROB
C tier
-Ness
-Dedede
-DK
-Wario
-Charizan
-G&W
You know, I really like how you put Sheik and Zelda together. As I believe someone else said in this thread, the fact that switching between them is much safer now, along with the huge buffs that Zelda received, means that it will be nigh impossible to CP just one or the other. Thus, it may just be feasible to cut Zelda a portion of this Top Tier.
However, issues I have with this list:
- Marth wasn't good enough to be top tier in Melee and he received virtually nothing new in this iteration of Smash. He's not top in Melee, he's barely top in vBrawl, and I see no reason he should be top in P:M. He has combos, good DD's, and tech-chase ability, but the place where he truly shined like no other before was in his edgeguard ability. Now that he's competing for that with Ike, there's really nothing that keeps him viable for those godly runnings anymore.
- Toon Link can be a VERY strong force as long as he remains on stage, but his recovery nerf alone is just too much for him to remain high. Recovering with upB means you have to risk getting hit by anything that hits low since TL's head usually has to go above the ledge, kinda like Falcon's and Ganon's in Melee. Thus, you'll probably have to tether most of the time and this can be countered easily by walk-off gimps if it's predicted. All this withstanding, the distance gained by ANY of TL's recovery options is poor, to say the least. It's true that Falco is another char who is strong offstage but is really weak offstage due to a bad recovery, but at least his recovery is variable and his onstage game is so strong that he doesn't have to count on getting hit off too often. If he gets hit off, he usually SHOULD die. Unlike TL, Falco can go sideways w/ Phantasm, up with Fire, or DOWN with Fire. He has options, but TL really doesn't...
- Bowser can hold his own now thanks to his increased weight and various types of armor, but he still gets HARD countered by quite a few characters, IMO. Sheik's one of them, but there are more. He still gets what I like to call "Bowser-chases" (kinda like tech-chases but he takes advantage of super armor on things like his DA and grounded sideB to ignore certain choices you make) on those chars but it's not enough to make up for the huge disadvantage he has when the game's at neutral. He's a decent character now, but I don't think you deserve to be high tier if you're hard-countered by more than one or two other characters.
- I really think you have Peach, Lucario, and Jiggs too low. Most of the opinions stated on this thread support this, I believe. If anything, they should each be High Tier, at least. Peach's defensive game, Lucario's offensive game, and Puff's offstage game are each too strong to simply be delegated to the realms of obscurity and mediocrity.
- This is just my opinion, but I also think that you have Pit and Lucas too low. Both are already looking promising and they seem to have an incredible amount of room for expansion in their respective metagames.
(07/18/2012 08:17 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]Ganon has limited options at all times, apparently someone said so.
Falcon can come in with any Aerial or even a lolzy dash attack.
Have you ever played against a Ganon in P:M? Like a decent one? He can space fairs, bairs, and late uairs, not to mention his new side b that grabs THROUGH SHIELD and leads to insta-techchase. Plus Ganon can dash attack just as well as Falcon -_-
Like I said, the matchup was close in Melee. Slightly in Falcon's favor. Now Ganon has been totally buffed with new recovery and that side b shit, basically putting him solidly over Falcon. Falcon is same ol shit besides a slightly better recovery (he still falls too fast for it to be as useful), and his metagame isn't going through any major advancements any time soon.
Just don't bother responding to this guy anymore if you can see he's clearly talking out his ass.
Waste of time.
Falcon sucks in melee, and he sucks in P:M. Case-closed.
(07/18/2012 08:00 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]Lol. Indeed.
But it's only really good if an opponent is dumb enough to run into it. Ganon has limited options at all times, but at least you can maneuver opponents into moves like the fAir.
Let me quote one of the high reputation members you like to dick ride so hard.
Daze, you need to calm down. I don't think you know anything either :]
Now, now, guys, let's be nice....but really ImaClubYou, I don't think you truly know what you are implying here. I'm not gonna say Falcon sucked in Melee or that he sucks now. He has, and has always had, swag combos and great tech-chase ability, but it's pretty easy to shut him down with simple options and offstage, he's a complete mess. Ganon got great buffs in the transition to P:M. The reason why he's middle of mid in my tier list (lower than he was in Melee) is cuz everyone else got better too. Still, I feel like Ganon's a bit faster now than he was in Melee, tbh. Probably makes MUs like Ganon:Falcon or Ganon:Spacee a lot easier now...
Edit: Seriously guys, no need for name-calling or insults here... -_-
Apparently he/she said Falcon also sucks in Melee. That's grade A ass talking, BTW. Way to contradict yourself there. Oh, and he also sucks in PM. You're saying he's bottom tier? Something that sucks deserves its own F tier, doesn't it?
Maybe if you played enough Falcon, you can see what he has that can challenge this "Almighty Dark Ruler."
@Bubbaking: I agree, he has swag combo's and tech chases.
-We are talking about the Ganon MU, right?
-Its the same thing if you're talking about shutting him down.
-He is also a mess if he's offstage, he just has a hitbox on his UpB at the end, small buff, not so great.
-I wasn't attacking your tier list, I'm defending mine.
-If you don't agree its in Falcon's favor, maybe its a even MU.
You guys, when someone who is "usually" productive and seemingly educated in Smash disagrees or agrees with something, you have the need to ride that dick so far up the ass you forget what you're talking about. Not so different from dogs in the sense they can't survive without a competent owner and pack leader. You ALL need to calm down and come up with your own, creative, and ORIGINAL arguments.
S
1. Fox =
2. Falco =
3. Zelda + Sheik *NEW*
4. Link =
5. Lucario -2
6. Mario -1
7. Ike -1
A
8. Sheik -1
9. Marth -1
10. Pit -1
11. Peach -1
12. Toon Link -1
13. Captain Falcon -1
14. Bowser -1
B
15. Jigglypuff =
16. Zelda +3
17. Snake -3
18. Ganondorf +5
19. Sonic -3
20. Wolf -3
21. Pikachu -4
22. Ness -3
23. Lucas -2
24. King Dedede -4
25. Mr. Game and Watch *NEW*
26. R.O.B. *NEW*
27. Luigi -4
28. Donkey Kong *NEW*
C
29. Charizard -4
30. Wario -6
No more unknown spots. I've been playing a lot of the cast that I didn't know as much about and this is my current opinion. Also, I added Zelda and Sheik as their own character since I wanted to see how stupid it was when you did. The results came out to be pretty f***ing stupid.
All the ones that are new are based on my personal experiences with the characters. I don't really like any of those characters too much either, so it's hard for me to make a strong opinion on them as of now, but I'll keep a look out for footage and guides on them and whatnot.
It's gruesome to see ya'll putting DK low.
I'm putting him low as of now because he apparently needs fixing and I approve of the fixing. He's good IMO, though I've only used him a little more than 5 times but I think he just needs that fix. Whatever it might be, I hope it can bring him up to at least mid-B. Because I liked his playstyle in Melee and his Smash 64 attacks are so funny.
Forward Smash!
Also, thanks SpiderMad. I saw your post where you posted a video of Young Links "canon" Bomb Jump. It taught me how to post videos that skip some time. (age#t=XXs)
You can right click anywhere on the video and press "Copy URL at current time".
Any of you able to do Wifi? Also if anyone else like B.W lives near Chicago ya'll can come to the tournies. I have a theory there's a mass of Chicago area players who play P:M/go on this forum but don't check out the tournaments. I also think some of you would be better off playing Wifi than all out theorycrafting. You can't take Wifi serious for helping you decently on a tier list, but theorycraft alone obviously leads some of you bonkers.
I made a crappy tournament results synopsis, besides looking at the actual tournament results thread I think it's of use.
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-40...l#pid82359
I honestly do not like putting DK so low, but again he's based on personal experience mostly. I did play him a decent amount in Melee too and I just can't really do much with him currently.
I love me some DK, and he has a lot of potential to rise on my list.