Smash Mods

True. It's just that their lower tiered characters they play in Melee still own since they're so skilled. I'm reluctant to base many things on that one person alone when they play P:M.

I think I'll make a crude list of what I got in my mind concerning tournaments. I might add links later, but so far a lot of these tournaments were recorded on Youtube: so search like "Silly Kyle vs Axe Project Melee".

Spoiler:

(07/15/2012 07:31 PM)`daze Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with your point about puff having an easier time with TL than YL. TL is YL with actual kill moves and better projectiles. If puff looms above TL, she will eat an Up-B every time. It's also much easier to land bomb-dair more than ever with in increased range of dair. That, in combination with the fact that TL can spam harder than ever (FullhopDoubleArrows, especially) makes this MU difficult for puff. And you say that it was hard edgeguarding YL's up-b? I've caught countless amounts of people trying to edgeguard TL's up-b. I'll admit though that if puff can get in and get TL offstage, the stock is pretty much over.

My post above was based purely on theorymongering. I've yet to play a TL main. I may re-think Jiggz's S-status. Regardless, I doubt she belongs anywhere lower than A.

I would personally rank her on the lower end of A tier, and the highest I could see her coming up is mid A tier.

She caught the melee scene by storm and it was difficult to deal with her for a long time because of how different she was. The case is completely different now in this era of time as people have learned how to counter a puff; especially in P:M with its more defense-oriented general direction and the introduction with many new characters with way better recoveries. She's by no means bad, and probably still has the best offstage game/ air game in P:M (until maybe MK makes an appearance) but I just don't see an S tier character in her anymore.

Heck, a new melee tier-list is in the works as we speak and from what I hear puff may be getting the boot off S-tier in melee as well.

Melee Jiggs was kryptonite to the melee cast because barely any high tier characters had a decent recovery. Jiggs' only goal would be to carry them far enough off the ledge so even a perfect recovery would not reach the ledge.

In Project M, Jiggs plays the same game. The problem with this however, is that there are many new characters with better recoveries/options off the ledge. This makes it harder to carry opponents off the ledge for gimps, and Jiggs' matchups suffer.

Jiggs is still good, but the rest of the characters got better to compensate. I suspect A tier.

OK, here is my radical opinion of the tier list for this wonderful game:

Top (S) Tier
Fox/Lucario
Sheilda
Sheik
Falco

High (A) Tier
Jiggs
Peach
Ike
Marth
C.Falcon
Pit/Wolf
Lucas
Zelda

Mid (B) Tier
Mario
Link
Toon Link
Ness
Ganondorf
Snake
Bowser
ROB
Luigi
Dedede
DK

Low (C ) Tier
Pikachu
Sonic
Charizard
Wario
G&W

Ok, a few explanations for some of my choices. I'll add more in future posts, I guess.

Fox -

Spoiler:

Lucario -

Spoiler:

This seems to be quite radical compared to most of the other opinions given thus far, so I'll explain this choice second. Some things on the simple side: Lucario is very mobile. He has a good dash speed and DD and his jump height and aerial speed are quite decent. His edgeguarding and gimping prowess is also top-notch. Additionally, he has guaranteed kill-setups at high %'s, like uthrow>bair and jab/DA>ftilt(optional)>super sideB. Now for the top tier material: Lucario theoretically possesses the potential to be almost perfectly safe all the time against most of the cast. Yes, he has the OHC, but let us look at the potential of his new-found mechanics. He can make any blockstring safe by simpling cancelling it into sideB grab or Double Team (DT). This allows for incredible mixup potential on one's shield, more than is given to the Spacees by their respective shines. On hit, he has nearly guaranteed combos from 0% to almost 50% and with good tech-chases and/or follow-up pressure, this damage can easily be vamped up. 0-to-death combos will most definitely be prominent for Lucario, given the right situations. In addition, not only can Lucario zone and control space somewhat with his aura sphere, he can also counter zoning with DT. This move has surprisingly low startup and lag and can be used to get in on a predicted attack to punish effectively. Once you have super, things just get even better, since DT can then be cancelled into anything instantly. As for recovery, Lucario is actually surprisingly hard to gimp. He can perform aerial DT to afford himself some invincibility while continuing to move towards the stage. On stages with walls below the ledges, he can Extreme Speed (ES) to the ledge or he can head for the wall to wall-cling. The cling then allows him to wall jump and ES once more. This 2nd ES can be used to wall-cling once more, but after this, Lucario can only wall-jump. With super, Lucario can cancel his recovery into anything, allowing him to turn the tables on his edgeguarder extremely quickly.

Basically, Lucario's cancelling system allows Lucario to play aggressively, yet safely and with high mixup potential, and he possesses tools to get in cleanly on pretty much anyone. His combo potential is clearly stellar and so is his gimping/edgeguarding. His recovery is also very variable and extends his longevity fairly well. I know it's not happening yet, but I truly believe that once some really dedicated players start getting a hold of Lucario, we're gonna start seeing some interesting things with this guy.

Sheik -

Spoiler:

Falco -

Spoiler:

Jiggs -

Spoiler:

Peach -

Spoiler:

It used to be that Peach was right below Marth in Melee, but I really don't think this is the case in P:M. A la Sheik and Falco (in my tier list), Peach received buffs in the transition while Marth didn't really get anything new. IMO, Peach's strongest buff is the glide toss she received from Brawl. This ramps up her approach/escape game greatly and gives her a lot of mix-up potential. As a practical example, glide tosses towards an opponent can be followed up with grabs, grounded attacks, FC aerials, etc. She retains her gimping prowess from Melee, and even though recoveries are generally stronger this time around in P:M, her floating ability, large disjoints, and turnips still halt a large number of comebacks from most of the cast. However, she still has trouble against Jigglypuff and Puff also performs her job of playing defensively and gimping extroardinarily better than she does in some MUs. She also still has trouble with all of my top tier since they can all outcamp her, among other things. Falco and Sheik outcamp Peach with lasers/needles and Peach is also comboed fairly heavily off of hit-confirms. Sheik, in particular, can cause huge problems for Peach with dthrow combos. Defensive Fox also outplays Peach due to superb DD ability and safe, nonpunishable attacks on shield/hit coupled with reliable kill setups. Lucario doesn't quite outcamp Peach, but his DD ability coupled with his intense, yet safe, offensive pressure/combos on shield/hit and ability to get in directly through enemy attacks thanks to DT causes great problems for Peach's defensive gameplay. In addition, Lucario, as the the first-rate gimper he is, has quite a few tools to keep Peach from coming back to the stage.

In general, glide tossing has truly improved Peach's defensive game but I think Jiggs still does Peach's job better than she does and top tier (plus Jiggs), as ordered in my list, either goes even with her or has fairly solid advantages over her in their respective MUs.

Ike -

Spoiler:

Oh God, Ike... My placement of Ike in my tier list isn't too far off from where most of you placed him, maybe one or two spots lower at most. My opinion on Ike's ability is very mixed. At first, I believed that he would be like a Ganon with a sword, and thus, the same strategies that work against Ganon would also, more or less, triumph over Ike, causing him to be somewhere in Mid Tier right above the Evil King. It very soon became painfully clear that this was not the case. Then, I tried to treat him like a slower Marth. Again, this was clearly not the case. Ike has proven that he is his own character and not some variation of another and in my mind, he has earned his spot in High Tier. I believe that Ike possesses the best edgeguarding ability in the game. With the likes of Eruption, bair, dair, fair, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, usmash, and QD wall jumps in his arsenal (I may have missed a few Tongue

), he is a terror to recover against. His Eruption, in particular, is nearly MU breaking (if not truly MU breaking). The move hits so low below the ledge that it actually prevents many chars from reaching the distance needed to sweetspot to the ledge. Lucas and TL cannot even tether recover against this, because it hits them before they can reach the ledge after tethering it.

Ike has large mixup potential from a distance thanks to his QD cancel. Close-up, he foils a huge number of attempts to punish his mistake with his frame 3 jab. He has devastating grab combos on nearly all the cast, especially against fast-fallers, whom he has no trouble putting offstage once they've been hit. He is also fairly hard to edgeguard, due to the nature (slight KB armor) of his Aether. His ability to QD walljump further diversifies his recovery options and his ledgehop options are fairly reliable due to the sheer range of his aerials. Ike IS similar to Marth in that he can perform very devastating combos and tech-chases off of hit-confirms and grabs, but unlike Marth, his KOing ability is potent, even at low %'s, and is not dependent on tippering. In addition, Ike is not as hampered as Marth is by projectiles, thanks to his ability to close large distances quickly, effectively, and fairly safely with QD. It should also be noted that Ike's shield breaking ability is a huge plus and is more reliable than even Marth's Shield Breaker. It only takes two ftilts from Ike to break most chars' shields. As such, he can quickly remove the option of shielding for his opponents and this greatly cripples certain MUs, like ROB, Snake, and King D3.

However, even with all these benefits, Ike is not without his drawbacks. Most of his moves still aren't truly safe, even with the huge range that complements them and a frame 3 jab to follow them. In addition, aside from QD tactics, his mobility is still lacking. Thus, fast chars like Fox and Lucario can continue to defensively DD and punish his actions and follow up with hard-to-counter pressure, and effective campers/zoners, like Falco, Peach, and Wolf can continue to do so while punishing hit-confirms when possible. Jiggs still has the potential to destroy one of Ike's stocks by playing defensively and then carrying Ike so far offstage that recovering is simply impossible for him, but her extremely light weight and his high KO potential evens out this MU. Ike has a particularly hard time against Sheik. She can weave in and out of his effective range quickly and with ease and she can use needles to keep him out of hers. In addition, Sheik can CG bad DI out of her dthrow and jab pseudo-CG good DI. He is also gimped fairly effectively by needles. Another thing that hurts Ike pretty badly is the potential of some chars, like Lucario and Marth, to hit Ike out of his Aether at its apex with a powerful attack if it is not sweetspotted perfectly.

Ike's sheer punishing ability, high KOing power (making life miserable for lightweights), and incredible gimping and edgeguarding prowess for horizontal and vertical recoveries alike ensures Ike's place in high tier, but he still suffers problems, due to his lack of speed and truly safe moves, allowing Top Tier and some of High Tier to retain an advantage against him.

Marth -

Spoiler:

C.Falcon -

Spoiler:

There has been a lot of controversy lately about Falcon and whether he should remain in High Tier or not. I still have him in it, albeit not as high as he was in Melee, because while it is true that Falcon received nearly nothing in the transition to P:M (like Falco and Marth), he still possesses that raw speed, combo potential, and tech-chase ability that made him a contender in Melee. Back then, very few characters (top tier, basically) could punish a tech chase as quickly and toughly as Falcon could, whether you were on the main stage or a platform, and very few still can. Once the opponent has reached manageable %'s, combos can be strung together that end in a decent strong finisher, such as the knee, bair, and fsmash. In addition, his high speed and great DD means he will be able to weave in and out against the majority of the cast that can't keep up with him (running-wise). This allows him to play safe against chars that could otherwise combo him into oblivion due to his fast-falling status. Of course, I'm placing the captain fairly low in High Tier because of clear flaws he has. One of them is a reliable way to actually get in and start a combo on his opponent. He has a wonderful DD, running speed, and comboes out of a grab, but in Melee, Sheik could nullify most of this simply by crouching right in front of him. This negated his high-priority aerials and even his grab. IIRC, this problem still plagues him in P:M. In addition, C.Falcon is gimped and edgeguarded incredibly easily due to his falling speed and negligible (slightly buffed, but not by much) recovery. Forgetting about Sheik for a moment, he still does not have many ways to get in on a large portion of the cast, but his ability to consistently get very rewarding results, should he get a hit in, is very valuable and worthy of being placed in High Tier, imo.

In general, Captain Falcon now (P:M) is the same as Captain Falcon then (Melee). Speed, DD's, coombos, and tech-chasing ability so painful it can quickly equate to lost stocks. However, he lacks a reliable method of getting that first grab or hit in, and if he's hit offstage, his chances of coming back in one piece are slim.

Pit -

Spoiler:

Pit is a character that I believe will rise in the future once he see increased usage of him. His combo potential is good, his gimping game is strong, and his zoning game is great. He also has a bunch of tools that make him very unpredictable both on and offstage and boasts a wonderful recovery. Pit's combo potential is already very solid, with set-up throws and reliable kill setups. In addition, he can aim to extend his combos indefinitely with arrows and arrow tech chases. Arrow tech chases, in particular, seem like they will become very promising in the future, since it is possible to cover all three of an opponent's tech options simply by shooting a charged arrow in one direction. To complement Pit's great combos, his gimping game puts him in the running as one of the best gimpers in the game right now. Multiple jumps, large disjoints and appreciative knockback on several aerials, a spike, and the ability to arrow confirm into most of his gimps offstage make him one of the most powerful chars around offstage. Pit can even shoot arrows around the stage if you try to travel under it or something in an attempt to gimp you by disrupting your movement. On top of all these good traits, Pit's zoning ability is icing on top of the cake. The maneuverability of the arrows make it hard to get away from them, and in the right situations, they can be easily confirmed into a glide combo. In addition, if Pit somehow manages to shoot an arrow in a manner that leaves him extremely unsafe and open to the enemy, he can attempt to maneuver the arrow around in a loop so that it covers him before he's punished. Speaking of punishing, Pit is actually really good at keeping himself from being punished up close. His jab comes out on frame 3 and his multi-jab combo is extremely hard to SDI out of. On top of that, many of his moves are very appreciable when it comes to the frame data

Pit probably has one of the best recoveries in the game right now. Three aerial jumps, two glides, and the ability to jump/attack out of the glides, this allows for nearly infinite variability in his recovery and can even afford Pit the chance to turn the tables quickly with something like an arrow confirm into a glide attack. The flexibility of Pit's recovery combined with the maneuverability of his arrows and the ease with which he can confirm them into a damaging combo is extremely potent and is, imo, top tier material (although I'm not suggesting that Pit should be top tier by any means). In addition, not only can Pit be unpredictable offstage, he can be unpredictable onstage too. His sideB allows him to enter a glide at full speed in whichever direction he chooses. This knowledge can be used to trick and/or confuse an opponent by running in one direction and then quickly gliding in the other. Changes in momentum of such large magnitude are usually hard to see coming and react to, especially if you were just chasing after the Pit and he suddenly glides towards you in an aggressive manner. That is the kinds of tool that helped make chars like Jiggs (ability to reverse her aerial momentum completely) and Falcon (DD and the ability to dash in one direction and then sideB in the other immediately afterwards) potent in the Melee scene.

Pit has so many good tools that it's really hard to imagine being anywhere other than solidly in High Tier. He has combos, gimps, zoning, recovery, and unpredictability, everything that you would want to see in a good character. In all honesty, I think he'll even rise more once more people start to tap into his nearly limitless potential.

Edit: Well, I guess I only had time to explain top-tier and high tier at the moment. I'm going to bed.... -_-

The one thing I think people aren't taking into account with Lucario is that they're assuming the opponent is always in a situation where Lucario's pressure game can show itself. The spacing game is very important, and especially for Lucario, who can capitalize on spacing mistakes so well. I can't help but feel that Lucario appears a lot better than he really is because no one is really playing as safely as they should, which allows characters like, for instance, Ike and Lucario, to heavily punish sloppy offenses while they can simultaneously apply hectic pressure on their own without much fear of a reciprocal punishment.

I've said that same paragraph in different ways for a while now, so there's just one other way to look at it.

That is very true, but I've also considered Lucario's ability to get in on solidly defensive play. It is true that I may have put Lucario too high on a pedestal, but in my mind, I really think that Lucario has what it takes to win in all situations. It's even hard to counterpick stages against him cuz he doesn't really have bad stages, just MU dependent ones. What you said can also be said of Fox, in a sense. Spaced properly, Fox theoretically shouldn't be a problem to handle but his ability to get in on, and out of, his opponent's defensive play is part of what makes him so hard to fight. While Fox may be faster than Lucario and may also possess a shine, Lucario has an arguably better projectile and more consistent combo-game. In place of the shine, Lucario has cancels into DT and SideB. In addition, when Lucario has meter, it is REALLY hard to deal with him.

I'm growing to accept this as well. I've definitely grown more patient with Lucario. He has limited options to approach and will melt your face off once he gets in, so spacing him is extremely important. Lucario's chief options are limited to:

-nAir
-Dash Attack
-Double Team
-fAir
-bAir

None of those are notably safe and can all be preformed from around 1/3 FD. Once you learn the immediate range he can control, you'll match him much better.

(07/17/2012 07:37 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]Lucario's chief options are limited to:

-nAir
-Dash Attack
-Double Team
-fAir
-bAir

None of those are notably safe and can all be preformed from around 1/3 FD. Once you learn the immediate range he can control, you'll match him much better.

Uair is a really good combo starter if it connects and dair sets up tech chases and is really easy to combo into aerial sideB (kills too at high %'s).

I agree with most of this, but don't just assume you're fighting Lucario on a flat stage, like FD.

I also come in from above and below platfroms w/ drop-down uairs and rising dairs. I've tested these options extensively and if you shield these attacks, you can count on being sideB grabbed.

Edit: Ok, I've posted an explanation for my placement of Jiggs.

(07/17/2012 07:20 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Jiggs -
Spoiler:
Here's some food for thought concerning Jigglypuff: At Zenith, a national, Hbox won the P:M tourney with Jiggs. Other really good players, like ChuDat and M2K, were also present.

It is true that many of the Brawl newcomers have received strong recoveries and many Melee veterans' recoveries have been buffed, e.g. as Ganon and Zelda, but the fact that Jiggs is still a gimping shark still remains. Due to the off-stage nature of P:M, it is still incredibly difficult to fight back against a char who can carry one so far offstage or can go so far out to secure a gimp. In addition to that, Jigglypuff's defensive play-style actually complements P:M perfectly, since it seems that the P:M metagame is turning out to be a little more defensively oriented than Melee's was. Her aerial speed and mobility combined with her disjoints still give most chars a great deal of trouble and her rest combos remain intact on Melee veterans as well as on Brawl newcomers, such as the uthrow>rest combo on Spacees, including Wolf. Of course, it is also no secret that it is incredibly difficult to gimp Jiggs, which means that chars like Marth and Ike, who are now known as masters of edgeguarding, will lose their usual MU advantage in this respect whenever facing Jiggs. One thing that I suspect may emerge in the P:M metagame thanks to chars like Jiggs is extreme stalling. This was already a problem in Melee, but Brawl and P:M have now added new stages that will allow Jiggs to "scrooge" (traverse under the stage) quite easily. I predict that SV will be a huge offender of this nature. Other chars, like Pit, can also take advantage of this extremely defensive strategy, but Puff's superb aerial mobility and offstage game could potentially make her the prime offender.

I've cited character data and I've cited results, so there is no reason for Jiggs to not be a High Tier char at the very least.

The thing is, lucario can seriously punish someone for being overly defensive. His approach options aren't the safest though, unless connected on shield. Being hit by lucario is arguably more dangerous that getting hit by fox to me. Just fox has an easier time getting in on you.

On a side note, I think I'm starting to believe more in a character spread now than a tier list. I think a lot of matchups are really close, where it will come down to knowledge and experience in the matchup. Think I'm going to really enjoy the first nationals for p:m ( assuming there will be one) seeing a lot of different characters and match ups.

The biggest thing is that defensive gameplay isn't limited to Shielding, which yes, Lucario is good at combating. It would even be a stretch to use such a derogative term such as "defensive" to describe spacing and playing as safely as possible. Defensive has connotations of non-combative, passive, avoidant, and "time-out intentive" gameplay. Offense and Defense are very arbitrary and generous terms that act as crutches in examining the aspects of the game and the metagame, rather than looking at things in more concise and particular terms.

(07/17/2012 08:44 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]It would even be a stretch to use such a derogative term such as "defensive" to describe spacing and playing as safely as possible. Defensive has connotations of non-combative, passive, avoidant, and "time-out intentive" gameplay. Offense and Defense are very arbitrary and generous terms that act as crutches in examining the aspects of the game and the metagame, rather than looking at things in more concise and particular terms.

True, but keep in mind that we need established ways to describe things concisely. If you just use and interpret them in a broad way rather than read too much into them, you shouldn't run into too many miscommunications.

(07/17/2012 07:48 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with most of this, but don't just assume you're fighting Lucario on a flat stage, like FD.

I also come in from above and below platfroms w/ drop-down uairs and rising dairs. I've tested these options extensively and if you shield these attacks, you can count on being sideB grabbed.

Pretty much every character can punish opponents that are above them. If Lucario couldn't do this, he'd suffer an incredible setback. The same also applies to Lucario. Being above someone mostly means getting hit. I guarantee if you try to approach the majority of the cast by dropping through a platform, you'll meet a u-tilt, rising aerial, or other anti-airs.

The problem is that Lucario really can't force someone onto platforms unless he's already got his target in a combo (which defeats the purpose). His opponents could simply stay on the ground and avoid dealing with platforms during spacing games. Lucario's series also benefit from flat surfaces. Uneven terrain also (e.g. Brinstar, Skyloft) requires adjusting that muscle memory and depend more on visual cues.

(07/17/2012 08:44 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]The biggest thing is that defensive gameplay isn't limited to Shielding, which yes, Lucario is good at combating. It would even be a stretch to use such a derogative term such as "defensive" to describe spacing and playing as safely as possible. Defensive has connotations of non-combative, passive, avoidant, and "time-out intentive" gameplay. Offense and Defense are very arbitrary and generous terms that act as crutches in examining the aspects of the game and the metagame, rather than looking at things in more concise and particular terms.

I understand very well what you are saying. In the context with which I use these words, defensive (in its most 'offensive' sense) means to keep yourself out of immediate harm's way while maintaining the ability to effectively punish any mistake or opening made by your opponent in a timely manner. I play Melee a lot so for example, when I refer to Defensive Fox, I mean a Fox who DD's right outside of your attack range so he can come in and instantly punish an opening made by something, like a whiffed attack, with something satisfactorily punishing, like a grab. Of course, playing defensively can also be extended to time-outs, as you say. Indeed, the line between "offensive" and "defensive" is very blurred.

Ok, consider this: In Melee, Fox and Falco were, and still are, considered extremely potent top-tier material largely because they could punish an opponent for sticking in shield. As you say, defensive gameplay is not limited to shielding, but they made a certain aspect of defensive play, shielding, so punishing for the shielder that it wasn't even an option in certain situations. Certain characters, like Samus, became valuable in the fight against Spacees because of specific tools they possessed which could be performed OoS to grant something like frame 1 invinciblity (Screw Attack) to keep shielding from becoming a really bad option. When you possess a tool so strong at punishing a certain aspect of general play that badly, so badly that the option becomes extremely limited, you start moving into that top-tier status (but that's not the only pre-requisite, of course). This concept remains for the Spacees in P:M but to a lesser extent, somewhat. However, now let us look at Lucario. He can't shine, but he still possesses a tool that can punish a certain aspect of defensive play (shielding) so badly that it's not even an option in several situations. Thus, theoretically, Lucario has an incredibly large advantage that he can hold over you at all times. Again, I know that this isn't being displayed yet, but I really believe that, with time, theory will become reality and Lucarios will emerge who can play extremely safely while still wrecking their opponents.

(07/17/2012 09:07 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]The same also applies to Lucario. Being above someone mostly means getting hit. I guarantee if you try to approach the majority of the cast by dropping through a platform, you'll meet a u-tilt, rising aerial, or other anti-airs.

The problem is that Lucario really can't force someone onto platforms unless he's already got his target in a combo (which defeats the purpose). His opponents could simply stay on the ground and avoid dealing with platforms during spacing games. Lucario's series also benefit from flat surfaces. Uneven terrain also (e.g. Brinstar, Skyloft) requires adjusting that muscle memory and depend more on visual cues.

Well, usually when I drop down on someone, it involves running/WDing off the platform instead of dropping thu it. Also, getting onto platforms to get around opponents isn't too much of an issue. When DT is performed aerially, it shoots him diagonally downwards and forwards and then transfers seamlessly into a grounded DT the moment he hits the platform, allowing for a safe method of air-to-ground transitioning, kinda like an invincible WL. Drop-down (run/WD off) bairs and uairs are a really good way for Lucario to try to get in on someone who's hanging under platforms too much.

Peach explanation:

(07/17/2012 07:20 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Peach -
Spoiler:
It used to be that Peach was right below Marth in Melee, but I really don't think this is the case in P:M. A la Sheik and Falco (in my tier list), Peach received buffs in the transition while Marth didn't really get anything new. IMO, Peach's strongest buff is the glide toss she received from Brawl. This ramps up her approach/escape game greatly and gives her a lot of mix-up potential. As a practical example, glide tosses towards an opponent can be followed up with grabs, grounded attacks, FC aerials, etc. She retains her gimping prowess from Melee, and even though recoveries are generally stronger this time around in P:M, her floating ability, large disjoints, and turnips still halt a large number of comebacks from most of the cast. However, she still has trouble against Jigglypuff and Puff also performs her job of playing defensively and gimping extroardinarily better than she does in some MUs. She also still has trouble with all of my top tier since they can all outcamp her, among other things. Falco and Sheik outcamp Peach with lasers/needles and Peach is also comboed fairly heavily off of hit-confirms. Sheik, in particular, can cause huge problems for Peach with dthrow combos. Defensive Fox also outplays Peach due to superb DD ability and safe, nonpunishable attacks on shield/hit coupled with reliable kill setups. Lucario doesn't quite outcamp Peach, but his DD ability coupled with his intense, yet safe, offensive pressure/combos on shield/hit and ability to get in directly through enemy attacks thanks to DT causes great problems for Peach's defensive gameplay. In addition, Lucario, as the the first-rate gimper he is, has quite a few tools to keep Peach from coming back to the stage.

In general, glide tossing has truly improved Peach's defensive game but I think Jiggs still does Peach's job better than she does and top tier (plus Jiggs), as ordered in my list, either goes even with her or has fairly solid advantages over her in their respective MUs.

Lucario is not nearly as safe on shield as he looks. Theorycraft discussion avoiding, he has big holes in his aggressive game and thus has to rely heavily on mixups to prevent from being punished, even, and especially, on shield. I've mentioned before that Lucario's game through evolution will rely more heavily on spacing, patience, and down-S to continue to be as safe on block as he is at low level, and that pervades still. Lucario was tested for balance likely more than most if not all other characters to ensure his two unique systems are not overpowering or overcentralising.

On a related note, Fox's position on the Melee tier list has been a point of debate since the 2010 tier list was made as the metagame entered it's current evolution, and with many characters being designed specifically with spacies in mind, the theoretical inhuman abilities of the character are really being put to the test against characters that so heavily punish any mistake in human error with the character.

Well, mixups are another one of Lucario's great strengths since he can sideB or DT at any point during his block string. For instance, I could Jab 1>jab 2>ftilt>sideB your shield in an attempt to make my shield pressure safe. In anticipating this, you could try to spot-dodge or roll in an attempt to avoid the grab and possibly punish it. However, as a mixup, I could always use DT in place of SideB, or at any point before it, in attempt to throw you off and punish your incorrect guess. In this situation, kind of like in other aggro-based fighting games, the advantage usually lies with the attacker simply due to the sheer number of mixup options he has. Kinda like why you don't want to keep shielding against Magneto in UMvC 3 cuz you're gonna make a wrong guess somewhere.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on certain points. I definitely agree with you about Fox, though. Much of the new tools introduced in P:M are indeed centered around punishing the Spacies for screwing up their so-called 'perfect pressure.' I was a Samus main in Melee, so I can't wait till they introduce her to see what anti-Spacee tools they gave her in addition to her upB and edgeguard moves. Big Grin

Edit: Marth explanation:

(07/17/2012 07:20 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Marth -
Spoiler:
As I said in the Peach analysis, Marth doesn't really get much, kinda like Falco. He is still extremely potent at edgeguarding, even against the stronger recovery game present in P:M, but his position of most fearsome edgeguarder might be taken by Ike now... He has a good DD, tech chase ability, combos, range, and a zoning game, but he still lacks a reliable means of dealing with a certain concept that three-quarters of the newcomer cast from Brawl brought along with them: projectiles. Counter, PS's, and his low dashing height help to mitigate the issue, but Marth still has trouble getting close to some campers and long-range zoners. This is something that Peach wasn't too bothered by in Melee, and with the addition of glide tossing to her P:M arsenal, she can deal with it even better. This factored heavily into my decision to place Marth below Peach in my P:M tier list. Another less important reason for my placement of Marth is his lack of power and KO ability when his kill-moves aren't tippered. This is a trait he's always had, but it's magnified now because more than half of the newcomers from Brawl are heavyweights. He still deserves his spot in High Tier, though, thanks to the devastating combos he's retained against the Spacees (and other fast-fallers now, like Lucas). In addition, even with the addition of glide-tossing, Marth should still have the advantage over Peach in the Peach:Marth MU.

Like Falco, Marth is mostly unchanged, so he possesses all the strengths he had in Melee but also most of his weaknesses. Factor in the different environment, due to the strengths of many of the new characters coming in, and Marth doesn't quite hold himself up in the tier list as strongly as he used to. However, he still has his extremely good edgeguard ability, as well as his advantages against a large portion of the Top and High tiers.

Edit 2: While writing my explanation for my placement for Ike, I realized that I should probably switch his position with Marth, so I'm doing that now. Ike is now right above Marth in my tier list.
Ike explanation is here:

(07/17/2012 07:20 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Ike -
Spoiler:
Oh God, Ike... My placement of Ike in my tier list isn't too far off from where most of you placed him, maybe one or two spots lower at most. My opinion on Ike's ability is very mixed. At first, I believed that he would be like a Ganon with a sword, and thus, the same strategies that work against Ganon would also, more or less, triumph over Ike, causing him to be somewhere in Mid Tier right above the Evil King. It very soon became painfully clear that this was not the case. Then, I tried to treat him like a slower Marth. Again, this was clearly not the case. Ike has proven that he is his own character and not some variation of another and in my mind, he has earned his spot in High Tier. I believe that Ike possesses the best edgeguarding ability in the game. With the likes of Eruption, bair, dair, fair, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, usmash, and QD wall jumps in his arsenal (I may have missed a few ), he is a terror to recover against. His Eruption, in particular, is nearly MU breaking (if not truly MU breaking). The move hits so low below the ledge that it actually prevents many chars from reaching the distance needed to sweetspot to the ledge. Lucas and TL cannot even tether recover against this, because it hits them before they can reach the ledge after tethering it.

Ike has large mixup potential from a distance thanks to his QD cancel. Close-up, he foils a huge number of attempts to punish his mistake with his frame 3 jab. He has devastating grab combos on nearly all the cast, especially against fast-fallers, whom he has no trouble putting offstage once they've been hit. He is also fairly hard to edgeguard, due to the nature (slight KB armor) of his Aether. His ability to QD walljump further diversifies his recovery options and his ledgehop options are fairly reliable due to the sheer range of his aerials. Ike IS similar to Marth in that he can perform very devastating combos and tech-chases off of hit-confirms and grabs, but unlike Marth, his KOing ability is potent, even at low %'s, and is not dependent on tippering. In addition, Ike is not as hampered as Marth is by projectiles, thanks to his ability to close large distances quickly, effectively, and fairly safely with QD. It should also be noted that Ike's shield breaking ability is a huge plus and is more reliable than even Marth's Shield Breaker. It only takes two ftilts from Ike to break most chars' shields. As such, he can quickly remove the option of shielding for his opponents and this greatly cripples certain MUs, like ROB, Snake, and King D3.

However, even with all these benefits, Ike is not without his drawbacks. Most of his moves still aren't truly safe, even with the huge range that complements them and a frame 3 jab to follow them. In addition, aside from QD tactics, his mobility is still lacking. Thus, fast chars like Fox and Lucario can continue to defensively DD and punish his actions and follow up with hard-to-counter pressure, and effective campers/zoners, like Falco, Peach, and Wolf can continue to do so while punishing hit-confirms when possible. Jiggs still has the potential to destroy one of Ike's stocks by playing defensively and then carrying Ike so far offstage that recovering is simply impossible for him, but her extremely light weight and his high KO potential evens out this MU. Ike has a particularly hard time against Sheik. She can weave in and out of his effective range quickly and with ease and she can use needles to keep him out of hers. In addition, Sheik can CG bad DI out of her dthrow and jab pseudo-CG good DI. He is also gimped fairly effectively by needles. Another thing that hurts Ike pretty badly is the potential of some chars, like Lucario and Marth, to hit Ike out of his Aether at its apex with a powerful attack if it is not sweetspotted perfectly.

Ike's sheer punishing ability, high KOing power (making life miserable for lightweights), and incredible gimping and edgeguarding prowess for horizontal and vertical recoveries alike ensures Ike's place in high tier, but he still suffers problems, due to his lack of speed and truly safe moves, allowing Top Tier and some of High Tier to retain an advantage against him.

As far as Ike goes... he can literally just spam one move (fair) into shields and not get punished because of how much shield pushback the move has. He has enough time after his opponent shields his fair to easily jab in or run away or short hop and do it again. Aside from that, I don't think Ike is a very good character. But I do think his fair is a little too good in the sense that anyone can literally just pick the guy up and he plays himself.

(07/17/2012 07:20 AM)Bubbaking Wrote: [ -> ]Top (S) Tier
Fox/Lucario
Sheik
Falco

High (A) Tier
Jiggs
Peach
Ike
Marth
C.Falcon
Pit/Wolf
Lucas

Mid (B) Tier
Mario
Link/Zelda
Toon Link
Ness
Ganondorf
Snake
Bowser
ROB
Luigi
Dedede
DK

Low (C ) Tier
Pikachu
Sonic
Charizard
Wario
G&W

I disagree with the placement of many characters here. Not going to argue my points. I simply want to state that I see plenty of things wrong with this list.

At least give credit for not putting Ike in top.

I might as well post my thoughts on a tier list. I agree with Kink on the Ike business.

S tier
-Fox
-Falco
-Sheik/Zelda
-Marth

A tier
-C.Falcon
-Wolf
-TLink
-Link
-Bowser
-Sonic
-Pikachu
-Mario

B tier
-Ike
-Snake
-Jigglypuff
-Lucario
-Peach
-Ganondorf
-Lucas
-Pit
-Luigi
-ROB

C tier
-Ness
-Dedede
-DK
-Wario
-Charizan
-G&W

(07/17/2012 01:27 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]S tier
-Sheik/Zelda
-Marth

B tier
-Jigglypuff
-Peach

Can you post some justification for the placement of these characters. Marth simply feels way too high while Peach and Jiggz seem too low. As for Sheik and Zelda, does this apply to both played as one or do you feel they deserve S tier status on their own?

SpiderMad

TheDevicer

`daze

Mithost

Bubbaking

Kink-Link5

Bubbaking

TheDevicer

Bubbaking

Kaiten

Kink-Link5

TheDevicer

Bubbaking

Kink-Link5

Bubbaking

Apples

TheDevicer

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ImaClubYou

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