NO YOU'RE WEIRD.
More so half and UpB maybe.
(07/14/2012 09:25 PM)SpiderMad Wrote: [ -> ] (07/12/2012 05:56 PM)B.W. Wrote: [ -> ]the aerial glide toss trick doesn't really help.
Talking about the throw bomb down AGT up? If you get the bomb out, you got yourself another up-b distance with it. You also need to use an AGT to be able to bomb jump. Can you make the next Glen Ellyn~ tourny on the 28th? Linguini is suppose to be there.
I'm talking of the AGT where you can just throw the bomb down to get tiny little jumps to move forward. You can do the AGT into the bomb and that's good except for the fact that you blow your face up and then if you're too close the opponent can capitalize off that and keep you off the stage anyway.
Also I'll sure as hell try. Saturdays are rough because everyone needs the car.
Hey all, from what I have played, really enjoying project m. Do have a question though, why is Mario being placed so high? I understand it's opinion based, but what changed that made Mario better then let's say Captain Falcon? I'll post my opinions later.
You're better off posting about Mario in his sub-forums. As for why people generally rank him pretty high, he's got an amazing gimp and grab game, plenty of power, performs well on almost any stage, is insanely good with walls, has lingering hitboxes in many of his moves, possesses a decent projectile, has great smashes, a decent enough time approaching, is floaty enough to escape most extended combos and chain-grabs, and still registers in at a comfortably heavy weight class.
Also, the cape!
Like the legendary Germ said..."CAPE!" "DOWN SMASH!" "KOBE!"
Understandable, and I should definitely check out the sub-forums. Reason I asked it here is that it pertained to peoples' lists. From some of the tourney results listed it seems like he deserves it. It's just weird to me because there were other characters in melee who consistently did his job better ( outside of the puff match up, that is rough for the puff ball ) and I didn't think the merger of the two Marios without some additional range or speed would fix those problems. Now I really want to fight a Mario player...
Mario is tricky when you first play him. His floatiness is unique IMO. Hard to combo at times. Chain grabs only work at low, very low %, and he can wheel of fortune you if you don't DI.
Mario has a lot of nice low % combos that have a lot of ways into them. They are easy to start on most of the cast because of mario's nice range of options. He excels no-where, but he does not trail behind anywhere either.
(07/15/2012 03:56 PM)zheamourth Wrote: [ -> ]Now I really want to fight a Mario player...
No, you don't...
I've spent quite some time thinking about this following list. Characters within tiers aren't ordered in any particular way.
Well yes those are his general strengths. One of the main things that kept doc barely out of the top list was having an abysmal match up with 2 of the top tiers and only have 1 winning. What I am curious about is how he matches up with some of the new top tier contenders. Having a wider spread of good matches would definitely help his standings, even if his old ones were not much better. I guess what I am really asking is did his Marth and Shiek match ups improve?
Well shiek can't just CG him now, it involves a tech chase if even possible. and the onlything Marth gained is a giant DACUS and I think his shield breaker can do real shield dmg now.
Mario has it a bit easier in those matchups but in no way are they in his favor.
Does anyone know if the Marth Killer technique is possible in PM without light shielding? That alone is a huge buff for Marth.
The problem with any tier list currently is that no matter how much you initially agree with one, the more you look at it, the more problems you find:
Devicer#s list initially seemed good, but i think he has jigglypuff, marth and falcon are too high, and wolf/lucario too low. I am not sure about DK being low tier either
(07/15/2012 05:01 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone know if the Marth Killer technique is possible in PM without light shielding? That alone is a huge buff for Marth.
No it's not possible, but marth also has to try to edgeguard character with some really obscure recoveries which hurt him badly
(07/15/2012 04:58 PM)Soft Serve Wrote: [ -> ]Well shiek can't just CG him now, it involves a tech chase if even possible. and the onlything Marth gained is a giant DACUS and I think his shield breaker can do real shield dmg now.
Mario has it a bit easier in those matchups but in no way are they in his favor.
Sheik could never chaingrab marth in PAL and it was still considered in sheik's favour because she is great at getting up close and personal. Sheild breaker only does more damage because shield properties are not fixed yet.
Very true, but speculation is fun, which is the purpose of this thread, and it's interesting to see peoples' reasons for why they believe someone belongs at a certain position. Regardless of how much the changes really affect the match ups, project M is interesting because it gives a fresh evaluation with the newer techniques that have been developed over the last 10 years.
(07/15/2012 05:01 PM)jalued Wrote: [ -> ]jigglypuff, marth and falcon are too high, and wolf/lucario too low. I am not sure about DK being low tier either.
I believe Jiggz has an easier time with TL than YL. YL's recovery was both fairly long and hard to edgeguard. A single bAir is enough to disrupt any AGT shenanigans. This takes care of the notorious counter... As for the newcomers, there are few names that give Jiggz any trouble. Zelda, Ike, and perhaps Pit may give Jiggz some trouble, but I'd say the rest are either 50/50 or better.
This applies to both Marth and Falcon as well. They both were blessed with relatively few poor match-ups in PM that they didn't have in Melee. Everything that made them excellent choices in Melee still exists.
Lucario has notable strengths but has an incredibly hard time approaching and generally plays poorly against floaties. Until recently, I would have ranked him significantly higher, but I've seen several respected users bring up incredibly convincing arguments against Lucario. I've since analyzed Lucario more and had plenty of time fighting against a rival who mains the pokemon. The experience has been pretty enlightening.
Wolf lacks the presence of the other furries. His shield pressure remains underwhelming unless shinegrabbing, he lacks that lingering, high-priority nAir that helps in approaches and in defense, he has fewer followups for a shine, and he doesn't have solid meta to fall back on. Keep in mind tier lists aren't supposed to list the characters from best to worst, but rather to demonstrate the potency of those characters in the current meta.
Wolf lacks a lingering anything. He's quite a lot like captain falcon in addition to having qualities of the spacies:
High air speed, all aerials except nair are most CF-esque than spacie-esque, he has a "Knee" although it works very differently.
Not having lingering hitboxes didn't stop CF though. I think he should be played like 2/3 spacies, 1/3 CF. He's not JUST a spacie.
Lucario has yet to peak. As players get better with him, his initial promise of super long/strong combos will come to life. Plus, a good player will learn exactly when to drop a combo into B-down to avoid opponents' DI. For now he can be low tier, but I am certain that as long as a few people play as him, he will grow into high to top tier.
(07/15/2012 04:28 PM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ] (07/15/2012 03:56 PM)zheamourth Wrote: [ -> ]Now I really want to fight a Mario player...
No, you don't...
I've spent quite some time thinking about this following list. Characters within tiers aren't ordered in any particular way.
I agree with the general direction of your tier-list devicer! Well done.
Although, I'm not sure if puff deserves the spot of S tier. A lot of the cast is much better now in terms of recoveries, so its harder to offstage gimp everyone like in melee. Not only that, but many characters have a way to keep her out with a projectile of some kind, so I'm not sure if she's as good as you say she is, especially in 2012, where many people have learned how to deal with puff.
I disagree with your point about puff having an easier time with TL than YL. TL is YL with actual kill moves and better projectiles. If puff looms above TL, she will eat an Up-B every time. It's also much easier to land bomb-dair more than ever with in increased range of dair. That, in combination with the fact that TL can spam harder than ever (FullhopDoubleArrows, especially) makes this MU difficult for puff. And you say that it was hard edgeguarding YL's up-b? I've caught countless amounts of people trying to edgeguard TL's up-b. I'll admit though that if puff can get in and get TL offstage, the stock is pretty much over.
When Meta gets back from his Europe vacation, I'll try to practice that MU with him a lot since he is a very good puff main in melee. Although the times that we have tried playing that MU, it either ended in a 3stock in my favor or a 3 stock in his favor. And it was very draining to play the MU either way.
Still, I like your tier-list and definitely agree with it's general direction.
Edit: I completely demolish any mediocre puffs easily, (usually 4 stock) and I can compete with Meta's puff, so I really don't think TL is as free as you think he is against puff based on my anecdotal evidence, but perhaps none of those puffs really know the MU well or at all, and I don't have much experience playing the MU myself. All I know is that every puff I play against gets really angry when I play TL.
![[Image: YpV9s.png]](http://i.imgur.com/YpV9s.png)
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Ike Lucario Mario
Sheik/Zelda
![[Image: McDGx.png]](http://i.imgur.com/McDGx.png)
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Everyone else including Spacies
![[Image: YMYkS.png]](http://i.imgur.com/YMYkS.png)
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Luigi Wario Rob
Snake GnW Ness Charizard (least confident part of listing, I don't necessarily think any of them suck that much)
Things: Marth Luigi Jigglypuff are not that good. DK Ganondorf Sonic are not bad. Vidujin being such a skilled Luigi isn't enough proof to back up all Luigi claims, I still think Luigi represents his Melee abilities and flaws more than other veterans. I think the same could be said about Axe and Pikachu, but that's still on my agenda to observe more.
Remember that tier lists are usually based on the top level of play. Basing your tier speculation on the best players of each character is perfectly valid for this thread.