If you think it's not hard to get through Link with everything he has then I can easily say you're either playing people way better than you or you're playing Link badly or as if he's still Melee Link.
You could also be playing nothing but Final Destination which a stage Link should never go to.
Yeah, Link's projectiles won't keep people out forever, but they do add on a nice bit of damage and salt during your approach. Then when you get IN you have to deal with all of his other stuff, and if the Link is sweet, he'll have pretty much be ready to smack you with something upon your approach.
I can easily say you like to bash on people when they don't agree with you.
What a noob hobby to always go on FD. Go on SV or BF.
If you're such a competent Link tell me what you would do when people get in.
In regards to Snakes recovery, I simply don't understand how it can be considered "bad" given the sheer range it covers and his ability to not only drop out of it at any time, but not go in to special fall when he does. Recovering high is absurdly safe and reliable.
It's more so the actual -recovery- part, where he goes up. There is a hitbox on it, but it isn't hard if you hit him from the side.
Other than that, the recovery is slow.
Slow recovery =/= bad recovery
Predictability and lack of range are normally what make recovery bad.Falco has a terrible recovery, even though it's relatively fast. Especially phantasm; the fact that he basically is forced to recover the same way in many situations, combined with the predictable trajectory of the recovery, makes it bad. Plus the terrible distance his recovery covers.
I am not trying to bash you, I am merely stating that anyone that thinks Link is free needs to spend more time with Link and explore his options.
What I choose to do when people have gotten past my defense depends on how close they are to me and what is expected to come next, so it really varies from character to character. More often than not the best options are short hop nair, or f-tilt. Only n-nair when someone is coming in too fast for your f-tilt to deal with, but otherwise you want to f-tilt so that they get knocked back farther and the f-tilt's disjointed hitbox deals with whatever move they have, or will throw out.
If you're being approached from above, u-tilt is awesome as is u-smash OoS. And if someone is to close for you to do any of these options but you know for sure an attack is about to connect, shield, then Up-B OoS. I also enjoy popping my shield to bait a grab, then up-Bing OoS before they get to me, but it doesn't work on everybody and it definitely doesn't work if you do it too much. Keep it in your back pocket. You have to be patient with Link and know the range of his attacks in order to keep people out.
I should also add another fact about Link that's proven to be stupid good vs many characters and that's his Hylian shield. Seriously with Link, if you ever actually need to approach, walk, don't run, toward them. Watch out for headshots and footshots, but projectiles coming at you that hit your center while you're walking just have no effect. This has helped me when I've played other Links as well as Falco, Fox, and Toon Link. It can help with Pit too, but with Pit's control over his arrows he can make it much easier to go through that defense.
The problem with Falco and Fox's recovery is that there is a notably pause on BOTH their recoveries. If they took that out, the recovery would be buffed, especially Side B.
A slow recovery means you can see it and you don't need pinpoint accuracy to take it down, unlike Marth's UpB.
This is if Snake recovers from below the stage. It's probably much better to recover high with Snake, but even then you can be patient and just let Snake attack and hit him back out as he lands.
@BW: I see. My point was if Link gets hit, though. Link has very good defenses.
Spacies side b is not easy to guard because of the pause, normally the move used for edgeguarding has been executed at the same time side b is. It's a matter of predictability.
Edit: I will admit Snake has difficulty from below the stage, but there are many characters that do as well that don't have "bad" recoveries whose above stage recovery is much worse.
Yes, if Link gets hit he is definitely in a position of getting a stock taken off, there's nothing I can say about that. But again that also applies to much of the top tier cast as well as a lot of the cast in general and should not be thought of as a deciding point that a character is bad.
Link can combo for days just like Fox or Falco can and his combos on many characters can lead to taking a stock, and he has the ability to do that damage without even approaching. It's ridiculous. I'm really surprised people think Toon Link is better than Link. I don't think Toon Link is bad, but just because he's more mobile doesn't mean he's better. If that was the case then there are a lot of characters even in Melee's tier list that would be higher or lower.
@Jock: Actually the pause gives you some time to prepare for the attack. If there was no delay on Side B then the recovery would be slightly OP.
@B.W: I think Link is funner than TLink. I'm sure TLink has better options than Link on ground. His UpB could probably put him even with Link, though.
T.Link has a better combo game and his projectiles are easier to control, but his kill game is weak and his recovery is balls, and no the aerial glide toss trick doesn't really help.
I also think people are sleeping on Snake. I think he's very good, but he does require work and he's pretty predictable too, but he's great at keeping people at bay or making them move the way he wants them to. His recovery is good for coming back up, but you can usually just wait for him to come up then punish him with an attack that sends him horizontally. Snake is still one of my favorite characters to play though.
I agree, at some point AGT will be as predictable as Falco's Lazers, especially if you try to recover from far away.
Yes, I picked up on Snake a month ago. He doesn't always have to have a trap orientated playstyle, I think that's what keeps people away from Snake.
Try UpB OoS to any aerial, he can be as aggressive as he wants and can approach at will. Sticky for the extra bonus.
yeah Snake can be pretty aggro, Cypher combos are kewl and pretty effective
also CC C4 sticks on getup attacks induce rage
I was talking to someone yesterday about Snake and I mentioned the very same thing. I believe one of the great things about snake is his versatility in playstyle. You don't have to play the same as the next guy. You can center your specific playstyle around any Mines, Nades, nikita, UpB OoS, or you can focus on using his A attacks. There is really alot you can choose from with snake. However most usually tend to settle on using 1 or 2 moves and finding a way to set them up. It's great seeing 5 different snakes play 5 different ways.
(07/14/2012 04:19 AM)Spam_arrows Wrote: [ -> ]It's great seeing 5 different snakes play 5 different ways.
The problem is that I've yet to see 5 different Snakes be good. Or even one Snake be good.
And centering an entire playstyle around one move is kind of neglecting all of the other moves; you should really instead integrate everything into a solid Snake. This is part of the reason why I hate when people say they have an "offensive" or "defensive" Snake. To me, it just sounds like you're purposely not learning how to utilize his entire move set. Sure, the moves all work great alone, but when utilized en force, Snake starts controlling the opponent hard.
And that's another thing. Stage control is for chumps. Control the opponent instead; they're the thing you're trying to get rid of after all, no reason to merely control the stage. Train a Fox to lay off of super shield pressure by chunking the hell out of him once. He can probably get away with it later, but the threat of 60% damage in a matter of seconds can make someone think twice. Demand that a character tech roll away from the mine on their left... only to roll into a nikita and get blasted. Crush an opponent's approach by training them that the "click" sound means an explosion that can be shielded, then use that instinctive reaction to stop their approach and start a counter-attack. Blow up predictable approaches by pulling a grenade right before they come in, then shield; they'll blow it up and take damage giving you a chance to start up your own strike. Teach an opponent that a mine blows up if you lay it before a a mortar drops, then utilize the time window to actually set a live one down and wait for their ignorance to become their undoing. Act like you're disappointed when they throw you into your own mine, when all they've really done is given you an escape to their kill-combo.
Snake's all about controlling the opponent. The stage can be controlled, too, I guess, but what's the point? Sure, not everyone is Pavlov's dog, but several instincts are going to kick in, you might as well abuse it. Instincts like "get away from explosions" and "I better shield this noise that generally kills me" are hard to repress.
And, in reality, the same can be said with any character, I just think it's natural for me and Snake to think this way.
(07/14/2012 04:46 AM)Roooster Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is that I've yet to see 5 different Snakes be good. Or even one Snake be good.
I've said this before, but Eli's Snake is effin boss.
(07/14/2012 04:46 AM)Roooster Wrote: [ -> ]This is part of the reason why I hate when people say they have an "offensive" or "defensive" Snake. To me, it just sounds like you're purposely not learning how to utilize his entire move set.
Now that's just silly. I'm sorry but individuals have distinct playstyles. Words like agro are simply assigned to generalize the notion. Besides, playing a varying degree of offense doesn't mean you have to forgo certain moves either. Think of the way Fox mains vary how they play. Most very good players utilize practically all of Fox's arsenal (aside from fAir) yet these players have exceedingly different methods of approaching the character. Part of Fox's success is based on how easily his game can be altered to counter situations. Fox can both laser camp the hell out of you and waveshine you into an early grave.
(07/14/2012 04:46 AM)Roooster Wrote: [ -> ]And that's another thing. Stage control is for chumps. Control the opponent instead; they're the thing you're trying to get rid of after all, no reason to merely control the stage.
I feel like the above is just a needless dive into semantics. After all, stage control is the mechanism through which you attempt to accomplish precisely that. There's no need to establish a new term for something that the entire community calls by a different term.
In other words, stage control IS controlling your opponent. The only real difference is whether it is passive or aggressive stage control, the latter being the one you preferred to call "controlling your opponent."
(07/14/2012 05:27 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]I've said this before, but Eli's Snake is effin boss.
It's got good usage of his main attacks, but I have yet to see anything spectacular with the whole Snake package. But, the videos I saw were kind of dated, so those probably aren't the best definition.
(07/14/2012 05:27 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ] (07/14/2012 04:46 AM)Roooster Wrote: [ -> ]This is part of the reason why I hate when people say they have an "offensive" or "defensive" Snake. To me, it just sounds like you're purposely not learning how to utilize his entire move set.
Now that's just silly. I'm sorry but individuals have distinct playstyles. Words like agro are simply assigned to generalize the notion. Besides, playing a varying degree of offense doesn't mean you have to forgo certain moves either. Think of the way Fox mains vary how they play. Most very good players utilize practically all of Fox's arsenal (aside from fAir) yet these players have exceedingly different methods of approaching the character. Part of Fox's success is based on how easily his game can be altered to counter situations. Fox can both laser camp the hell out of you and waveshine you into an early grave.
The reason for my dislike of it probably should be embellished on.
See, with your Fox example, well, that's where I want great Snake players to be. Going back and forth. However, any Snake video I've ever seen is basically one or the other the whole way through, so when people say "I play an aggressive Snake" I think of those videos that don't involve his traps at all, or a "I play a defensive Snake" relying way too much on ineffective camping. To me, it gives the idea that you have to do one or the other, simply because all I've ever seen other Snakes do is one or the other, never a combination of both.
Hopefully that explains it; I'm not against saying you have a "defensive Fox" or "aggro Fox", or any other character. Just Snake, and only because he's newer and needs more people to grow with the concept as a whole, and I really don't want people to be turned off that he has to be one or the other completely.
(07/14/2012 05:27 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ] (07/14/2012 04:46 AM)Roooster Wrote: [ -> ]And that's another thing. Stage control is for chumps. Control the opponent instead; they're the thing you're trying to get rid of after all, no reason to merely control the stage.
I feel like the above is just a needless dive into semantics. After all, stage control is the mechanism through which you attempt to accomplish precisely that. There's no need to establish a new term for something that the entire community calls by a different term.
I was unaware the entire community called it that. I come from a fighting game community instead, where "stage control" is, well, non-existent since the stages are all flat with a wall. Instead you want to control your opponent in order to win, so I call it by what the true end goal is: controlling your opponent. To me, calling the concept by the mechanism instead of the final goal seems odd, but, it's your community, do what you wish.
FINAL EDIT: It's come to my realization that this isn't a snake forum and this probably doesn't belong here... how did I get into this thread again? anyway, sorry for detracting this time
Ness isn't that bad.
DK is good.
(07/12/2012 05:17 PM)ImaClubYou Wrote: [ -> ]@B.W: I think Link is funner than TLink.
weirdo
(07/12/2012 05:56 PM)B.W. Wrote: [ -> ]the aerial glide toss trick doesn't really help.
Talking about the throw bomb down AGT up? If you get the bomb out, you got yourself another up-b distance with it. You also need to use an AGT to be able to bomb jump. Can you make the next Glen Ellyn
~ tourny on the 28th? Linguini is suppose to be there.