07/12/2012, 02:21 AM
Not to mention his gimp game is ridiculous with that UpB. It's like nintendo knew he was gonna go down there for that reason and gave him that UpB to compliment his offstage playstyle.
(07/11/2012 09:50 PM)Jockmaster Wrote: [ -> ]great recovery,
(07/12/2012 02:20 AM)MachGO! Wrote: [ -> ](07/12/2012 01:15 AM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]"He missed it but that's alright." Lol. But yep, the Fox even lost the mental advantage.
It seems like a lot of people have forgotten WHY Fox and Falco are considered the best two characters in Melee. It's not because Fox can gimp like a madman with his shine, or waveshine, or usmash kill before 100% on most of the cast; or because Falco can combo like no other character and gimp early with his spike or camp with his lasers. All of these things are really great things, but they're more relevant in lower level play.
In top level, the reason they are so good is because they're so ****ing difficult to grab. Their shines come out in 1 frame, which allows them to fearlessly shield pressure. We've all tried to shield grab a spacie, when does it work? When they mess up. How often to top players mess this crucial part of their character's gameplay? Not very often. Falco dairs your shield and as most characters, your BEST option is to buffer a roll. Now how pathetic is that?
Edit: Something I'd like to bring up though, regarding P:M's tier listings lately. What is it that these characters people have been listing at the top have that make them Fox/Falco level? Where's their ingrabbability equivalent? What the hell makes Ike, Mario, Link, Ganon and Zelda so top tier? Cause I don't see it.
ingrabbability? I find this to be a bold and odd conclusion. My main problem is that the basis of your argument (the fact that fox and falco are harder to shield grab than most characters) doesn't explain why Jigglypuff and Sheik are also top tier and how Marth, Peach, and C. Falcon are high tier. What makes them so ingrabbable?
The reality is that weakness to grabs is also extremely subjective; not all characters get CG'd easily or drop like bricks when they are thrown offstage. You are asking for the "ingrabbability equivalent" of Ike/Mario/Link/Ganon/and Zelda. The answer is really just another couple of questions: "Do grabs really wreck these characters? Is it more or less a MU to MU basis?"
In conclusion, you can't generalize what makes characters top tier using subjective reasoning like grab vulnerability. IMO, the most obvious and important factor for what makes Fox, Falco, or any other character top tier is how good their punish game is. Being punished is the most colorblind concept in fighting games and characters who have the strongest and fastest punishes are the best because their ability to capitalize off an opponent's mistake is really what determines the outcome of a match. Fox and Falco have their shines and their strong and fast aerials/smash attacks. Jiggs has her rest. Sheik has her grab and slap. Marth has his gimps and fsmash. Falcon's got his knee. The list goes on.
And if you apply this kind of logic to people's tier lists they will definitely make more sense to you. Ike can close space like a beast and punish you with his air game, Zelda has incredible punishes with her fair/bair and grabs. You get the idea.
(07/12/2012 03:04 AM)DrinkingFood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a few pages late in response, but I feel this deserves one. Snake's recovery is not great. It's terrible. One of the slowest moving up-Bs in the game (his only special which gains him distance) and one of the shortest non-multijump air jumps in the game give him moderate distance, but horrible options and gimpability. His only redeeming quality is that he can throw a grenade onstage if he recovers from higher than stage level, but even then the opponent has ages to react. I'm not sure of his c4 boost can be done in p:m for recovery like in brawl (I dont main him) but even if it can, I know it's easier to mess up, does damage to yourself, puts you in hitstun offstage, and has the chance to kill you at high damages. All you get is additional distance. I'm pretty sure snake's recovery is awful.
(07/12/2012 03:41 AM)Apples Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like you're assuming that I'm saying the only factor in determining a good character is how grabbable they are. I never said anything like that. Obviously, ingrabbability is exaggerated, but that's only for easing communication. Again, I also stated that this isn't the only thing that makes these characters top tier. It's that they have all of these other strengths as well on top of this. However, the rest of the top tiers also have these strengths. What makes spacies a step above is that they have just this one more thing that the rest don't have. I wasn't trying to answer the question, "What makes a top tier character?" (Which you answered.) I was answering, "What makes Fox and Falco so good? (In comparison to the rest of the cast which is tournament-viable.)"
Now, regarding an "ingrabbability equivalent", I'm looking for another unique quality that most characters can't produce with their moveset and properties. For instance, what we've known for a long time that Jigglypuff had which is unique is her 1 frame "instant kill" (essentially) move, which she can combo into. (Hmmm, interesting 1 frame trend...)
Later, it became more and more evident that her aerials are difficult to punish if used properly. So, similar to Fox/Falco's elusiveness with shine, she has a sort of aerial elusiveness and very good DI when she does happen to get hit.
All those things you listed regarding punishing are true, but you also listed the top tiers and how they're top tier. What I'm addressing is what puts Fox and Falco above even those characters. Because, as you stated, they all have that in common. I was not overgeneralizing at all, but I do suppose I skipped some preliminary explanation that I assumed was known. This is what I was referring to when I said that people seem to have forgotten what makes them so good.
I think you took my post the wrong way, and I hope this makes things more clear for you.
(07/12/2012 03:10 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]You know what I hate? When I go through the trouble of spiking Snake as Marth and all I end up doing is hitting his damn cypher and getting electrocuted...
(07/12/2012 03:11 PM)B.W. Wrote: [ -> ](07/12/2012 03:10 AM)TheDevicer Wrote: [ -> ]You know what I hate? When I go through the trouble of spiking Snake as Marth and all I end up doing is hitting his damn cypher and getting electrocuted...
This all day.
I tend to get a lot of questions as to why I think Link is top, and the reason I put Link as high as he is is because he has amazing stage control, all of his projectiles are great for keeping people away from you and they all travel incredibly far. He doesn't have fantastic mobility to get his opponent away, but his attacks mostly send them back into a position where Link can just continue to throw shit at the opponent again. His n-air, f-air, f-tilt and up-B send people far away. N-air is incredibly quick, and has always been very good for Link, f-tilt having faster start-up and a larger hitbox makes it a pain to deal with, f-air just creates a wall in front of Link, though it's not usually better to use than n-air because it's much more punishable, it does kill much better. Up-B is amazing so long as you don't get stupid with it as well. It kills, and against a good number of the cast can be used immediately after a down-throw.
Link is also not without combos with the combination of his u-tilt, d-smash, u-air, boomerang and bombs. Boomerang and bombs are excellent combo starters and approaching tools that if you use correctly and use with arrows are the biggest pain in the ass to get through. A combo from Link could end in a stock or end with you off the stage if you end it with f-air. If it doesn't take a stock , then his opponent is either off the stage, you're you're back in the position to be a nuisance. If they are in fact off the stage, then arrows are the greatest thing in the world as they knock the opponent away often gimping them very early in their attempt to recover. It helps to have platforms so that you can shoot higher if you need to, but if they manage to get close to the stage and are a little higher then f-tilt is incredibly for edgeguarding. If they're lower, jumping off with a n-air finishes the job more often than not and if you don't go too far out you can always return from it.
Then to add to how much of a jerk he is now, his hookshot can now catch you in the air. It's not easy to do, but the fact that it can do it is pretty dumb since it means he does have the ability to chaingrab.
His worst match-ups are probably Fox, Falco and Wolf. I think he goes even with Mario, Toon Link, Sheik , Lucario and Pit. Then I believe every other match-up is in his favor.
(07/12/2012 01:32 PM)MachGO! Wrote: [ -> ]Just look at the copious amounts of options Mario has. He has excellent gimping tools (bair), great killing moves (fair/fsmash), amazing throws (uthrow,dthrow), a projectile, useful edge guards, and solid approach tools (fast WD, nair, dair). In the hands of a top level player, its hard to think of situations Mario wouldn't have a response to and he has all the tools that could potentially be another character's pivotal weakness.