I'll be updating the OPs as information comes in. This thread should be used for ideas and testing results for Pikachu. Videos are appreciated.
Proposed General Changes
-Thunder with less endlag
-Nair power buff
-Quick Attack doesn't go into specialfall
thunderjolt should autocancel when pikachu touches the ground
skullbash charges up 2X faster
bair autocancels from shorthop
downsmash nonsdiable
upsmash and Nair kills earlier
all fsmash hitboxes do as much damage/knockback as the sweetspot.
Half the endlag for EVERY special attack
Can you change it that thunder starts even higher? If so, that'd be really cool.
Also, if you can change the amount of times Pika can change direction in the midst of Quick Attack, do so to like 4 or something.
lower knockback on u-tilt for better comboing
Dthrow goes lower, and Fthrow goes farther than in vBrawl, and maybe at an upward angle, too.
Usmash does 17%
I think that's good enough for now?
(11/20/2009 02:33 PM)Red X Wrote: [ -> ]thunderjolt should autocancel when pikachu touches the ground
you mean the down B?
skullbash charges up 2X faster
that's a given.
bair autocancels from shorthop
agreed.
downsmash nonsdiable
someone has to tell me what SDI is before I can answer dat one
upsmash and Nair kills earlier
Alright then... maybe give optimum height of the upsmash some electrical hurts for extra power or something.
all fsmash hitboxes do as much damage/knockback as the sweetspot.
Oooh, that's a little painful. or maybe make the hit boxes push them into the sweet spot or even make the smash last longer, but cancelable about a certain amount of time
(11/22/2009 06:33 PM)Money Wrote: [ -> ]Half the endlag for EVERY special attack
>.<' I can go with that, but that means more spammy thunderbolts and lightning ball thingy's.
Can you change it that thunder starts even higher? If so, that'd be really cool.
Higher lightning? it already starts from the top of FS, how much higher do you need?
Also, if you can change the amount of times Pika can change direction in the midst of Quick Attack, do so to like 4 or something.
ah yes. more agility/quick attack jumps and moves. sounds a decent move for breaking him even more.
lower knockback on u-tilt for better comboing
yup. sounds fine
Dthrow goes lower, and Fthrow goes farther than in vBrawl, and maybe at an upward angle, too.
careful not to make the down into a mass chain grab. cause that's the last thing that annoying thing needs. -.-
Usmash does 17%
no sure what it's initial damage is but it sounds ok.
I think that's good enough for now?
just about I'd say
Pummel power up? backthrow sends them into the ground like new falcons backthrow or at a more horizontal angle.
a bit of cyclonic suction for the downsmash? for my friend cause he loves to use that smash. -.-
I think a neat direction to take with pika would be 0-death combos. Like in 64 where he was broken.
-Fair has about 0 cooldown lag (so it chains into it's self)
-Increase fair hitstun and decrease knockback
-Increase uair hitstun and decrease knockback
-Increase nair knockback
-Let bair rise pika. Like a helicopter. Pikacopter
-The landing dair hitbox grounds opponents
-dthrow a more reliable chaingrab
-uthrow less DIable
-Decrease endlag on special moves
-More QA movement. About 4 should suffice
-No specialfall after QA
-More hitstun for QA and tjolt
-Skull bash cancels to fair
-dtilt hits straight up with low set knockback (chains to grab or utilt)
-decrease utilt knockback, increase hitstun
That should be perfect.
Quote:-Let bair rise pika. Like a helicopter. Pikacopter
I really like that idea.
How about a Pikachu that is fast and manuverable as balls, but dies super early, just slightly later than Jigglypuff. We obtain this by decreasing the lag (start up and ending lag) on the majority of Pikas already fast moves, we make quick attack able to move at least 5 times, and make Side B always fully charged as well as increase Pikas aerial maneuverability. Think of it like a Sonic with better aerial maneuverability, more kill power, a projectile, and better kill moves, but dies sooner and has a less powerful ground game.
Of course, attempting this we run the risk of making Pikachu just camp all day with neutral b and quick attack (imagine a Falco 10 times worse), so in order to fix this, we could make neutral B have less range. I'd say slightly less than 1/2 of FD would be good.I'd rather see Pika use that wonderful projectile against short hoppers, to stop platform cancelers, and to pressure as he approaches.
Now, keep in mind, Pika is a beast with combos. He has a number of combos that will lead into thunder, so I don't think buffing his kill moves or even his damage output is too wise an idea should we do some of the other buffs I had described here. I'm pretty sure we'd fine simply by making him an incredibly mobile character along with the increased hitstun that he will be an extreme beast.
/support
Now we gotta make someone make this. I support 7x quick attack.
(11/28/2009 09:03 PM)CRASHiC Wrote: [ -> ]How about a Pikachu that is fast and manuverable as balls, but dies super early, just slightly later than Jigglypuff. We obtain this by decreasing the lag (start up and ending lag) on the majority of Pikas already fast moves, we make quick attack able to move at least 5 times, and make Side B always fully charged as well as increase Pikas aerial maneuverability. Think of it like a Sonic with better aerial maneuverability, more kill power, a projectile, and better kill moves, but dies sooner and has a less powerful ground game.
Of course, attempting this we run the risk of making Pikachu just camp all day with neutral b and quick attack (imagine a Falco 10 times worse), so in order to fix this, we could make neutral B have less range. I'd say slightly less than 1/2 of FD would be good.I'd rather see Pika use that wonderful projectile against short hoppers, to stop platform cancelers, and to pressure as he approaches.
Now, keep in mind, Pika is a beast with combos. He has a number of combos that will lead into thunder, so I don't think buffing his kill moves or even his damage output is too wise an idea should we do some of the other buffs I had described here. I'm pretty sure we'd fine simply by making him an incredibly mobile character along with the increased hitstun that he will be an extreme beast.
I think 5 QA is overkill. 4 is a nice number. It should be enough to go below FD and get to the other side easily w/o use of second jump or skull bash.
As for camping, just reduce tjolt's damage to 2% and increase hitstun. It changes from a camp move to a combo/approach move, seeing as 2% damage just plain piddly. With the buffs to combos I suggested, combos will be much better than camping. Think pika from 64. That's what we should be going for.
Don't increase damage or knockback on any moves. I'm talking 0-death combos as in, combos so good you can get a fool from 0% to 120% without them even being able to do anything about it. Racking up damage or killing won't be a problem. This should capture a broken pikachu, fit for Brawl-.
Being a pika main, pika's most important combo moves are:
-utilt
-dtilt
-uair
-fair
-dthrow
-fthrow
The aerials need their lag decreased (especially fair, it would look awesome to be doing pika barrel rolls through someone until they hit the ground then having them eat up smash). utilt needs less knockback and lower cooldown lag. dthrow needs more hitstun and a lower trajectory to make it a more reliable chaingrab. fthrow needs more hitstun so it leads better into combos.
Combo breakers are:
-nair
-usmash
-thunder
Don't do anything with these moves. They are perfect the way they are. If you want to do anything, give pika super armor during T2 of thunder (the hitbox where pika hits himself with thunder). Even then that's not necessary.
We also have the QAL (Quick Attack Lock), which can be buffed by increasing the hitstun on QA and utilt. (It's done by footstooling -> QAC down -> uair -> footstool -> repeat; or by just QACing through them a bunch.)
(11/28/2009 09:11 PM)The Cadet Wrote: [ -> ]/support
Now we gotta make someone make this. I support 7x quick attack.
I might be up for making some of it. I don't have experience but I'll learn. Fast.
lol, 7x QA would be hysterical.
Even though I still think 4 is enough. Whatever. We can leave the number to alpha testing.
It's supposed to be stupid. :V I don't think it's really overkill, TBH. It sure helps the combo game because now Pike can get pretty much anywhere. The only worry I would have is stalling due to overhuge mobility.
After 4 QAs, I'm sure Pika gets any where he chooses, especially with QAC off of platforms.
Yes but he doesn't do as much damage. Lol.
Very true lol. We should just start with 4 and see if it's better with more.
You can make quick attack do some more damage and knockback, right?
Quick attack with knockback...
(11/29/2009 01:04 AM)Money Wrote: [ -> ]You can make quick attack do some more damage and knockback, right?
Quick attack with knockback...
Part of me likes that but part of me doesn't. Giving QA knockback would ruin the QAL. On the other hand, maybe we could make it so it chases opponents. That would be cool. But the QAL is too. Conflicting halves strike again.
I was bored so I made a little test pac for pika.
http://64digits.com/users/Patrick7286/pikapac.zip
This is the latest B+ pac with these changes:
Usmash has a lot more KBG
Dair is a spike
Bair does more damage %
Side B has interupt frames on collision/ending
Can you make it so that Thunder doesn't put Pikachu into helpless state while activating (allowing usage of other moves even while thunder is activating), so that Pikachu can get off 2-3 Thunders at once. Would be truly insane and would allow for some truly epic combos and edge-guarding.
(12/02/2009 12:16 PM)Mawootad Wrote: [ -> ]Can you make it so that Thunder doesn't put Pikachu into helpless state while activating (allowing usage of other moves even while thunder is activating), so that Pikachu can get off 2-3 Thunders at once. Would be truly insane and would allow for some truly epic combos and edge-guarding.
I'd suspect that this isn't quite possible. Although it would be very cool utilt someone in to a thunder that's already falling.
Why would it not be possible? You can already hit pika during that and the thunder will stay. Cut down the start time on when the thunder comes out. make some early IASA frames so Pika still has the option to use the blue bolts. That's exactly how you would make it happen.
(12/03/2009 02:40 AM)CRASHiC Wrote: [ -> ]Why would it not be possible? You can already hit pika during that and the thunder will stay. Cut down the start time on when the thunder comes out. make some early IASA frames so Pika still has the option to use the blue bolts. That's exactly how you would make it happen.
I'm pretty sure that all Pika needs to use thunder2 (shockwave) is to come into contact with a thunder controlled by Pika. In any case, you might be able to allow multiple thunders just by cutting out most of the ending frames on thunder.