05/07/2010, 11:59 AM
Hello, this is Kojin, and since no thread was here about this, I felt it was okay to make a thread where people could discuss the Brawl Minus Sonic, and his gameplay, as well as anything new they discovered. He is so fun to play, and is annoying to fight against at times. I’ll start off with what I know, and as this thread gets developed we can make this page better. If you have ideas/combos/strategies, let it be known here.
(If possible, if someone can get me unstaled damage values for moves or certain combos that would be nice)
Movement: Sonics strongest point is his mobility, and this has increased dramatically, in the air and ground. This change usually makes it unnecessary usually to roll to avoid attacks, when simply running away avoids a lot better. This also makes it more easy to follow up on attacks, or make it really hard for opponents to put you in most bad situations. Dash dancing quickly in varying strides in a melee-esque style is very effective for Sonic, and on many stages makes it very annoying to pin down.
Recovery: because Sonic’s recovery was great already, there is no significant change, but spring is still a decent combo interrupter as it now spikes a bit ( though too many characters can go through them with specials, so it’s not that great) , and Homing attack is a bit safer to try since it has less ending lag.
Most Significant / Important changes:
1: Homing Attack is a bit better IMO. It has less ending lag on it, and can be cancelled from your Upsmash, meaning it’s a “target combo.” This will always work. Its more legit as a way to hit players off stage due to hitstun.
2: Down Smash can be cancelled into any move which helps in mindgames, Sonic’s forte. Its good because you can almost always get something good at it now. On block, you can cancel into a running grab, or retreat, or another attack. Make sure you tilt the control stick if you wish to cancel into a tilt, and you will have to buffer a running dash if you want to run out of it, but that means Sonic can cancel a hit Down Smash, follow his stunned opponent and follow up. The sweetspot, the third hit of the smash, is very powerful and has even more knockback, meaning a spotdodge happy opponent is taking a big risk doing it. And you can still cancel afterwards and follow up. Remember that you can crouch cancel in this game, which means even if you dash out of Dsmash, you can crouch cancel into any dashing tilt or Smash, though you’ll have to practice to get it down.
3: Up Smash can only be cancelled into Homing Attack, which makes it safer to use if blocked, as it gives you a way to prevent punishment, and gives you a combo that gives you an additional followup afterward. Experiment with different timings to cancel it, and you’ll see possible guaranteed setups, as well as okizeme opportunities.
Example: you can Di an ASC (Aerial Spin Charge) as your opponent recovers and get it to hit in certain situations. At certain percents, you can bair after this, land, and follow up with this target combo again. The damage is absurd, and you could still follow up.
4: Dash Attack has enough hitstun to be chained into and makes for an annoying way for people to deal with, since its oringal purpose was to be a punisher, this is an ideal combo opener. This move was severely toned down, but although it does less damage, not only dash Attack is still to be a strong shield pressure tool, as well as a legit KO combo at high percents: Dash Attack into Bair. I believe you can go into your dash sooner at this move, so if you wish to play it safe, you can DA and run away before the opponent can punish you.
Due to these moves improvements, you are not want to be in your shield blocking these moves due to their decrease in ending lag, increase in shield lag, and his ability to cancel them. The sweetspot of the D smash makes spotdodgers pay though and with since sonic is even faster, fighting sonic in brawl minus may end up being an even bigger camp fest for your opponent, since killing is still an issue (though not as much) and many moves can still out prioritize Sonic. Sonic is still a punisher, but he can punish anything in this game and now combo off of it for lots of damage, while limiting his opponent’s ability to do the same to him. Projectile users however will give him the most trouble, since many characters have had their projectiles buffed, can combo off of them, and limit sonic’s ground game, though he is still mobile in the air.
Pit, Pikachu, and Mario are good example of characters that can make it very hard to get it in for sonic with projectiles. Sonic can get around it but a mistake will be costly. Usually. Oddly enough, Kirby with the Sonic attack is a matchup you don’t want in many cases because he becomes harder to punish, at least when I played Chudat it felt that way lol.
Note: Moves that will need to be cancelled will have a “C” after the move, so that now we have some new acronyms to use.
Down Smash Cancel: DSC
Down Smash SweetSpot ( the 3rd hit that deals more damage and knockback): DS3
UpSmash Cancelled into Homing Attack: USHA
The Throws can be treated the same way as before, except that you have more chances to combo off of them, so I won’t go into detail yet, since I have been more focused on his attacks. I will say that though most people will try to string a bunch of upairs from moves like upthrow, it is better IMO to keep them as close to the ground as possible, and you can miss out on damage sending them to the top immediately. I would try to add more USHA to your combos, since it pops sonic upwards, and then if you wish, upair them.
Some Simple Combos:
Dash Attack > Bair (good kill setup at high percents)
Up Smash > Homing Attack (USHA: target combo; possible follow up afterwards)
Dash Attack > Dash Attack (best at low percents, and helps set up more afterwards)
Down Smash Cancel > anything (very dependant on percentage and weight though, safest option is to Up Smash)
Up Throw > Up Air ( classic combo is more viable in brawl minus, but at low percents many moves are possible)
Lastly, a list of the changes of vSonic to -Sonic:
------------------
==Sonic==
------------------
==JABS/DASH ATTACK==
Jab 1 - No Changes
Jab 2 - No Changes
Jab 3 - Damage up considerably; knockback gain compensated
Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox
==TILTS==
Forward Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated
Up Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated
Down Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated. Faster IASA.
==SMASHES==
Forward Smash - Damage WAY up, KBG compensated. Has a hitbox when sonic pulls his elbow back after the punch.
Up Smash - Damage WAY up, intangible for most of the attack instead of just when he leaves the ground, can be canceled into a homing attack by pressing B, last hit angle significantly lower, knockback up
Down Smash - Damage up. Can be canceled into anything after the second hit. 4th hit (AKA the hit you should never, ever get hit by unless something went horribly, horribly wrong) does MASSIVE DAMAGE, has a ton of hitlag, and kills super early.
==AERIALS==
Neutral Air - Damage up on all hits, KBG compensated on all hits (slightly less on weak hits, meaning that they are viable as kill options at high %s!). Angle on strong hit lower. Hitbox lasts longer.
Forward Air - Does way more damage. Landing lag speed x3.
Back Air - Damage way up. KBG compensated. Strong hitbox lasts longer; weak hitbox doesn't exist
Up Air - Damage on second hit up, KBG down
Down Air - Damage up slightly, angle to straight up
==GRABS/THROWS==
Standing Grab - No changes
Dash Grab - No changes
Pivot Grab - No changes
Pummel - Speed x3
Forward Throw - No changes
Back Throw - No changes
Up Throw - Speed x2, damage up
Down Throw - Damage up considerably
==SPECIALS==
Neutral Special - Speed, damage up
Side Special - Damage up
Up Special - Spring has a light spike to it
Down Special - Damage up, has recurring hitbox on charge
==OTHER==
Attributes - Run speed way up, aerial jump hight slightly higher.
Feel free to discuss anything new you have learned as the game develops. I hope to post small vids showing things sonic can do too. I hope you guys are enjoying Minus Sonic like I am, and I’m very interested in what different people have learned.
(If possible, if someone can get me unstaled damage values for moves or certain combos that would be nice)
Brawl Minus Sonic
Movement: Sonics strongest point is his mobility, and this has increased dramatically, in the air and ground. This change usually makes it unnecessary usually to roll to avoid attacks, when simply running away avoids a lot better. This also makes it more easy to follow up on attacks, or make it really hard for opponents to put you in most bad situations. Dash dancing quickly in varying strides in a melee-esque style is very effective for Sonic, and on many stages makes it very annoying to pin down.
Recovery: because Sonic’s recovery was great already, there is no significant change, but spring is still a decent combo interrupter as it now spikes a bit ( though too many characters can go through them with specials, so it’s not that great) , and Homing attack is a bit safer to try since it has less ending lag.
Most Significant / Important changes:
1: Homing Attack is a bit better IMO. It has less ending lag on it, and can be cancelled from your Upsmash, meaning it’s a “target combo.” This will always work. Its more legit as a way to hit players off stage due to hitstun.
2: Down Smash can be cancelled into any move which helps in mindgames, Sonic’s forte. Its good because you can almost always get something good at it now. On block, you can cancel into a running grab, or retreat, or another attack. Make sure you tilt the control stick if you wish to cancel into a tilt, and you will have to buffer a running dash if you want to run out of it, but that means Sonic can cancel a hit Down Smash, follow his stunned opponent and follow up. The sweetspot, the third hit of the smash, is very powerful and has even more knockback, meaning a spotdodge happy opponent is taking a big risk doing it. And you can still cancel afterwards and follow up. Remember that you can crouch cancel in this game, which means even if you dash out of Dsmash, you can crouch cancel into any dashing tilt or Smash, though you’ll have to practice to get it down.
3: Up Smash can only be cancelled into Homing Attack, which makes it safer to use if blocked, as it gives you a way to prevent punishment, and gives you a combo that gives you an additional followup afterward. Experiment with different timings to cancel it, and you’ll see possible guaranteed setups, as well as okizeme opportunities.
Example: you can Di an ASC (Aerial Spin Charge) as your opponent recovers and get it to hit in certain situations. At certain percents, you can bair after this, land, and follow up with this target combo again. The damage is absurd, and you could still follow up.
4: Dash Attack has enough hitstun to be chained into and makes for an annoying way for people to deal with, since its oringal purpose was to be a punisher, this is an ideal combo opener. This move was severely toned down, but although it does less damage, not only dash Attack is still to be a strong shield pressure tool, as well as a legit KO combo at high percents: Dash Attack into Bair. I believe you can go into your dash sooner at this move, so if you wish to play it safe, you can DA and run away before the opponent can punish you.
Due to these moves improvements, you are not want to be in your shield blocking these moves due to their decrease in ending lag, increase in shield lag, and his ability to cancel them. The sweetspot of the D smash makes spotdodgers pay though and with since sonic is even faster, fighting sonic in brawl minus may end up being an even bigger camp fest for your opponent, since killing is still an issue (though not as much) and many moves can still out prioritize Sonic. Sonic is still a punisher, but he can punish anything in this game and now combo off of it for lots of damage, while limiting his opponent’s ability to do the same to him. Projectile users however will give him the most trouble, since many characters have had their projectiles buffed, can combo off of them, and limit sonic’s ground game, though he is still mobile in the air.
Pit, Pikachu, and Mario are good example of characters that can make it very hard to get it in for sonic with projectiles. Sonic can get around it but a mistake will be costly. Usually. Oddly enough, Kirby with the Sonic attack is a matchup you don’t want in many cases because he becomes harder to punish, at least when I played Chudat it felt that way lol.
Note: Moves that will need to be cancelled will have a “C” after the move, so that now we have some new acronyms to use.
Down Smash Cancel: DSC
Down Smash SweetSpot ( the 3rd hit that deals more damage and knockback): DS3
UpSmash Cancelled into Homing Attack: USHA
The Throws can be treated the same way as before, except that you have more chances to combo off of them, so I won’t go into detail yet, since I have been more focused on his attacks. I will say that though most people will try to string a bunch of upairs from moves like upthrow, it is better IMO to keep them as close to the ground as possible, and you can miss out on damage sending them to the top immediately. I would try to add more USHA to your combos, since it pops sonic upwards, and then if you wish, upair them.
Some Simple Combos:
Dash Attack > Bair (good kill setup at high percents)
Up Smash > Homing Attack (USHA: target combo; possible follow up afterwards)
Dash Attack > Dash Attack (best at low percents, and helps set up more afterwards)
Down Smash Cancel > anything (very dependant on percentage and weight though, safest option is to Up Smash)
Up Throw > Up Air ( classic combo is more viable in brawl minus, but at low percents many moves are possible)
Lastly, a list of the changes of vSonic to -Sonic:
------------------
==Sonic==
------------------
==JABS/DASH ATTACK==
Jab 1 - No Changes
Jab 2 - No Changes
Jab 3 - Damage up considerably; knockback gain compensated
Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox
==TILTS==
Forward Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated
Up Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated
Down Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated. Faster IASA.
==SMASHES==
Forward Smash - Damage WAY up, KBG compensated. Has a hitbox when sonic pulls his elbow back after the punch.
Up Smash - Damage WAY up, intangible for most of the attack instead of just when he leaves the ground, can be canceled into a homing attack by pressing B, last hit angle significantly lower, knockback up
Down Smash - Damage up. Can be canceled into anything after the second hit. 4th hit (AKA the hit you should never, ever get hit by unless something went horribly, horribly wrong) does MASSIVE DAMAGE, has a ton of hitlag, and kills super early.
==AERIALS==
Neutral Air - Damage up on all hits, KBG compensated on all hits (slightly less on weak hits, meaning that they are viable as kill options at high %s!). Angle on strong hit lower. Hitbox lasts longer.
Forward Air - Does way more damage. Landing lag speed x3.
Back Air - Damage way up. KBG compensated. Strong hitbox lasts longer; weak hitbox doesn't exist
Up Air - Damage on second hit up, KBG down
Down Air - Damage up slightly, angle to straight up
==GRABS/THROWS==
Standing Grab - No changes
Dash Grab - No changes
Pivot Grab - No changes
Pummel - Speed x3
Forward Throw - No changes
Back Throw - No changes
Up Throw - Speed x2, damage up
Down Throw - Damage up considerably
==SPECIALS==
Neutral Special - Speed, damage up
Side Special - Damage up
Up Special - Spring has a light spike to it
Down Special - Damage up, has recurring hitbox on charge
==OTHER==
Attributes - Run speed way up, aerial jump hight slightly higher.
Feel free to discuss anything new you have learned as the game develops. I hope to post small vids showing things sonic can do too. I hope you guys are enjoying Minus Sonic like I am, and I’m very interested in what different people have learned.
