I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been much discussion of Zelda thus far. The new ghost box on her usmash is a nice touch, and the spike effect is lovely. The higher ghost box on her dash is also a lovely improvement, though I'm curious whether or not it still spikes (haven't looked in much detail).
Additionally, having now been double-teamed by ghost-box happy friends of mine, allow me to say that having more than one Zelda in play is TERRIFYING.
Were there any other big changes with Zelda?
Neutral B grants aerial momentum. Up-B seems harder to spike with, maybe not. Some other secondary hitboxes seem to have moved a bit. I think the main reason she's seen little discussion is that she's seen little change; 1.6 Zelda was pretty solid.
Fsmash ghost can be tilted up or down. Same with ftilt. Zelda is still a beast.
Up B is definitely not harder to spike with. Zelda's main change: her down B makes you weaker, not stronger.
(Disclaimer: Down-B power levels are matchup specific.)
Zelda's u-smash is way too good on crappy players and CPU's. You can Upsmash up to 5 times on some characters (because of the ghost u-smash) And when you let them go they have around 70% or so. I'll put some videos up when I fix my video device.
Its not cheap, because if you're good you can DI out of the U-smash; which completely nullifies the move, but doesn't leave the zelda player too terribly vulnerable because Zelda has much less lag on her up-smash when it misses.
I need to play against better people...
(05/05/2011 09:22 PM)RAI Wrote: [ -> ]Zelda's u-smash is way too good on crappy players and CPU's.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this post is if not for satirical effect given that you later in the post acknowledge that you don't play against decent smashers.
(05/06/2011 01:16 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ] (05/05/2011 09:22 PM)RAI Wrote: [ -> ]Zelda's u-smash is way too good on crappy players and CPU's.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this post is if not for satirical effect given that you later in the post acknowledge that you don't play against decent smashers.
One of my friends (who is pretty good) can get out of up-smash every time I do it so that the 3rd stock from this video doesn't happen to him. If you suck then you die like this fox CPU:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R4l9i9DDn8
Yes so circle back to my question of why mention something that you are aware has no relevance to competent players?
(05/07/2011 12:01 AM)Kink-Link5 Wrote: [ -> ]Yes so circle back to my question of why mention something that you are aware has no relevance to competent players?
I don't play against competent players. I'm hardly a competent player myself. For some of us this has a lot of application.
But you're right. It doesn't contribute anything to the discussion except that the new changes contribute to these noobslaying combos.
Zelda... is just fun.
HEY ZELDA BOARDS.
This is pretty much just a total re-post of something I posted on the tier list board in response to someone talking about Zelda. Then I was like "Dang! I made a bunch of improvement suggestions and didn't really talk that much about tier placement! This post belongs on the Zelda boards." So I copy-pasta'd the relevant suggestions here and left the rest over there. If you already waded through my wall of text over there, ignore me here! If not, do please read, consider, and respond.
Usmash:
Needs more BKB. Seriously. Combos are what B- is about but no character should be able to get you from 0-60 by just spamming one move over and over. Yeah yeah, DI and SDI can get you out of that move (apparently, anyway. I haven't quite figured that out) but even then Zelda's better off then you can can more often then not just do it again. That's just not fun for anyone, except maybe a bit of sadistic glee from your opponent's rage. Zelda's double-hitbox style centering just screams "epic combos," (I once fought someone who did such beautiful things with lightning kick I thought it almost a crime to fight back.) but this is all squandered because simply spamming the same move over and over does the job all the same. Very annoying.
But a very, very easy fix! Boost the BKB on usmash, maybe compensate a little for KBG.
Yet, I see a slight issue here... one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses is a good air approach, and one of her other ones was difficulty starting a combo (outside of usmash chain.) Fixing usmash is totally necessary, but something needs to replace its combo nonsense.
Is it possible to tilt Zelda's ftilt diagonally, or at least possible to get the game to read it? If so, Zelda's ftilt should have an upward tilting version that hits about the same distance away as normal ftilt, but a ftilt hitbox higher. (Unless it does that already and I'm an idiot for not noticing. Can't check right now, Wii still broken. Sorry!) It should also bring people at Zelda like the second lighting kick hitbox. Zelda's whole playstyle is sort of a "Yeah, you just try to approach. See what it gets you." It's really hard to get in her face and even if you do it's really hard to actually hit her; her smash attacks cover her body crazy well. An anti-air move will add to this style, and the get-over-here-style of knockback will encourage the more minusy idea of cool-looking combo chains, as opposed to Zelda's usual "you failed at approaching, go away and try again."
Zelda's "stay away!" playstyle is perfect for her not only as a character but just for how her moves work: her aireals give horrible body coverage when the opponent is in her face, so it's especially hard for her to hit people out of combos once they start them up. This lends itself perfectly for a playstyle revolving around preventing approaches, because she's really good at that and the results are disastrous if she fails. This is largely irritating for the other player, however, and it of course makes matches last longer. Not really very Minusy. So I think a vacuum anti-air is perfect for her: more combos mean a faster game that more fun to play and more fun to watch for everyone, and a big splody anti-air move is natural for Zelda's approach-killing moveset. EVERYONE WINS.
Just make sure to get rid of that usmash chain. Usmash should not combo into itself. It's boring and annoying for the victim and just lazy on Zelda's part. Yeah, there's probably some what to Smash DI out of the thing (up into sparklestream 2 and then sideways out of range? Sort of seems to work at mid percents.) but that's still dumb, isn't it?
Beutifully said. Zelda is broken as hell, in my opinion. People just keep spamming usmash, and lightning kick is pretty retarded, I mean her range is rediculous. The makers of brawl minus have to realize that there are people other than pros that know all kinds of DI tricks etc that are playing this game... She's pretty broken already, but when it comes to noob play, she's completely invincible and pretty much imposible to play against.
I would try using a fast, light character (Sheik, Squirtle, even Jiggs) and just doing an old fashion rush-down. From a distance, she gets beaten by a shield or dodge, and up close, you can gimp her. If you can't beat her with your character of choice, try using Marth.
I hear a lot of different people complaining about how a certain character is broken (Jiggs, Snake, DK, Marth, Zelda, Sheik, Falco, Pit. It's been going on for a while now...). Think about what keeps getting you. Then think (or ask) about how to get around it.
Honestly, if you keep getting hit by Din's Fire, try going above it. Or shielding it. Or hitting Zelda from a distance. In the (bad) games I see on Youtube, spamming Din's Fire appears to be winning games. That shouldn't really work.
Edit: Falco. Seriously. Falco just wins.
Ya dins fire is mostly for stall and off edge stuff. Spamming it won't really do much for you. Zelda is just a matchup you have to get use to. Typically Zelda players won't change up tactics so the spacings remain the same. Learn them and then abuse the in between areas.
I wish zelda would get the Usmash she had in 1.6. No 2nd hit box and covered more of her front and back area
Nah. New U-smash is better, because it can't pick off as many approaches. The only trick to playing against Zelda is to approach quickly, but make sure you don't get hit from a distance, or by U-smash. The funny thing is, imagine you're DK. You get U-smash chained from 0-80. Then what? Zelda has a really difficult time connecting with a finisher.
Learn the spacing on her attacks. Then bait and punish her.
This is true I guess thats why I enjoyed old Usmash
I find Usmash chain into Uair is usually prty solid. Lead ups into forward smash are usually the way to go.
Totally agree with bait and punish
Yup. If she's not careful, you can space her and then rush her. Hard. And if she is careful, she isn't spamming as much.
Zelda's design is genius, I think she's really good, but definitely not broken.
I haven't seen a good one before, though.
Wait, wait, wait. Din's Fire won a match for someone? That's possible? Did the opponent slip into a coma at the start of the game or something? I honestly cannot see how that could beat someone. A minor annoyance at first, I'll give it that, but a game winner? That don't sound right at all.
Din's Fire is not very good.