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First off, allow me to congratulate the dev team on their success with Solimar. There was clearly a great deal of work involved getting the little guy where he currently is, and it shows. His range is a little odd in places, but I think I just need to get used to where exactly the hitboxes are.

I'm not entirely sure if it's intended behavior, but at one point I ended up with 3 pikmin trailing me without having plucked them. Is there anything that could have caused that? I'll look into reproducing it if not...

Also, are there two different versions of the whistle? We were having some inconsistency with vBrawl whistle vs. Murder whistle and I'm not sure if it's intended.

Good news and questions aside, I'm deeply disappointed to see that with-Pikmin Olilmar seems to be (almost?) completely reverted. I do understand the complaints against the 1.6 impenetrable Pikmin cloud, the spiking, and so on; but it feels as though 2.0 has thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one. Leaving him his 1.6 plucking, his enhanced smash range at a slower speed, and a few other tweaks could have made Olimar a very well rounded two-paradigm character; but as he is now, it seems as though with-Pikmin is not designed to be played at all*, and that's a great pity regardless of how well Solimar plays out.
Murder whistle = Hold down-B, like a DK barrel. Tap whistle is vWhistle. But I don't get to actually play yet (friend has the damn brawl disc) so I can't tell you more than that.
Olimar with pikmin is actually completely unchanged from vbrawl. BPC playtested this quite a bit at a few tourneys and he is perfectly fine like this.
Even if vBrawl Olimar is viable, it strikes me as a pretty compelling disincentive against using the character's original move-set.
This is totally the board for me. I haven't played this game TOO much, but here are my first responces and thoughts.

On the unwanted pikmin: Olimar's pikmin pluck is what, like two frames now? This is awesome, and it also seems to be the cause of the unwanted pikmin. I would guess it is the result of accidentally buffering pikmin pluck with a finger twitch when trying to use a B move (or an A move for the especially twitchy.) You don't notice the pluck because it's too fast, so the pikmin is just "there" whenever you next try to use a move. This has actually killed me a few times: I try to Solimar headbutt but I accidentally pluck one pikmin and tether fail instead. I don't think this is something that should be fixed... so long as the Solimar dev testers would be so kind as to give us tips on how to not do this.

As for the vbrawl Olimar moveset... well, I think people know how vocal I've been on that in the past, and this is still no different. (except for the throwing bit and the transformation bit. It's great now.) Now that I see the love and care you have clearly placed into Solimar, however, I do like the idea of being able to switch styles of play instantly. I still am very adamant on giving the Pikmin moves a minusy touch on par with everyone else, and I probably won't shut up about it until you do. But the instant playstyle switch thing is actually right up my alley. Great job on Solimar... but don't stop there!
In that regard, after the Solimar changes how wiggle room is even left before the filesize limitation becomes a concern?
I'm pretty sure the filesize limitations aren't really so much an issue anymore. I saw a post someplace (herpderp) that explained "code injection" wherein the limits are bypassed by referencing code elsewhere.

So basically, I make this cool thing, X. X is larger than the limit. By making a smaller file which tells the game "look at X" I can make X as big as I need it to be. Because the reference (the "look at X" file) is below the limit.

As I understand it. So take it with a grain of salt.
Which is neato.

On the note of Olimar buffs, it's important to note how much he doesn't need them as well as how much he does. We all see "vbrawl Olimar" and immediately think "underpowered in minus" but this really isn't the case. In vbrawl, Olimar was an absolute monster both offensively in his combos and damage racking and defensively in his ridiculously good standing grab. He was really only hampered by having, quite frankly, the worst recovery in the whole game, falling short of even Ivysaur.

We are now taking about vbrawl Olimar in an environment with massive hitstun. By simply existing in the Minus engine, Olimar has gotten a huge buff to his already crazy combo game. Oh yeah, and he now has a beastly recovery as Solimar (which can be activated almost instantly), removing his only major problem as a character. I'm willing to bet he can stand up to most of the cast as-is in terms of balance issues. But this is Brawl minus, friends, and in Brawl minus, we break things. Olimar's down B now breaks his Pikmin, so as our mantra goes, we must break them more until they are fixed.

As he stands now, Olimar has the capacity to switch between a powerful, point-blank range brawler who literally throws himself into his foes and a long-range, damage-racking defensive monstrosity almost instantaneously (even mid-combo). I find myself frequently switching between these two styles as the situation allots, and using them interchangeably and unpredictably when the situation doesn't directly favor one or the other. I find his unpredictability a big bonus: you can run at an opponent, short hop, and then pull out a Pikmin immediately before attacking to suddenly double the range of your attack.

The fact that you can switch playstyles instantly really makes me want each playstyle's differences to be emphasized. Pikmin attacks should have more range and superior elemental effects: more hitlag and hitstun on electric, for instance, but many other things could be added:
Purple dair and fair impale, possibly fB. (Can you latch Pikmin onto impaled opponents? If not, impale fB would kinda suck.)
Red has vbrawl charizard fair-style no-flinch AoE fire... or just have it hit at a better angle for simplicity.
Blue has a waterbox/windbox on execution, or perhaps has ultra-high HP?
White deals massive damage (preferably instead of a flower) and has poison visual effect like its grab pummel.

Basically, Pikmin need things that make them more unique than the non-pikmin moves. As it is, the difference is only one in range vs. power (barring B moves, of course) and while that is a notable and significant difference by itself, it needs more.

Also, I've noticed that when Pikmin are on the field but not synced with Olimar, the Solimar moves do not activate. Is this all the time or just in certain circumstances? Was this intentional? If so, would you remove it? There are better ways to balance the transformation and encourage the whistle murder.
Pretty much what Thunda said. It's intentionally that way because vBrawl olimar is REALLY FUCKING GOOD. And also I did quite a lot of olimar (Kirk created the solimar base, I minus'd it up) and I have to say that I am not touching that article shit with a 10-foot pole.
Quote:Also, I've noticed that when Pikmin are on the field but not synced with Olimar, the Solimar moves do not activate. Is this all the time or just in certain circumstances? Was this intentional? If so, would you remove it? There are better ways to balance the transformation and encourage the whistle murder.

Can't really check for synchronization. We can only check to see if the article exists or not. killing all the pikmin is just 10 frames.
I'm not sure what you mean, Cadet. Are you saying that "Solimarness" an activated state of being that comes into existence when you whistle and leaves existence when you pluck, not simply an alternative move activated when Olimar tries to command a nonexistent Pikmin? So even if all of your Pikmin are dead, do you have to whistle? Or is it activated when all pikmin are dead and deactivated when at least one pikmin is in play?

Also, in response to your signature (which seems to be in response to mine), I'd like to point out that Atheism is a belief that God does not exist in much the same way that Christianity is a belief that God does exist. Therefore, your assertion about the burden of proof applies to Atheists and Christians equally, as it also happens to be literally impossible to, scientifically or otherwise, prove a lack of God. By any chance did you mean to say that you were an Agnostic? "Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable." (Wikipedia.org, "Agnosticism")
User CP > Edit Options in sidebar menu > Thread View Options section > uncheck "Display users' signatures in their posts." It makes these forums SO MUCH EASIER TO READ, and was one of the factors that pushed me to register back in the fall, lol.

On topic:
(04/03/2011 07:34 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what you mean, Cadet. Are you saying that "Solimarness" an activated state of being that comes into existence when you whistle and leaves existence when you pluck, not simply an alternative move activated when Olimar tries to command a nonexistent Pikmin? So even if all of your Pikmin are dead, do you have to whistle? Or is it activated when all pikmin are dead and deactivated when at least one pikmin is in play?
The latter: Minus 2.0's version of Olimar modifies each of his subactions that normally use Pikmin and adds an "If Article #0 Exists" event before the vBrawl code, then places an "else" block with the Solimar version of the attack after the vBrawl code.

Unfortunately those Pikmin are articles. And Olimar's subaction code that deals with those Pikmin attacks consists of things like "Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16] = true". And articles are already an incredible pain to deal with, and Olimar has five different Pikmin, and each Pikmin has separate properties for each different attack it's used in... :\
Hence Cadet's other response!

/RtEB
I see!

Well, it's no matter. As cadet also said, it only takes 10 frames to whistle! It's just good knowing how it works so I can work around it.

And I rather enjoy the forum subculture of signatures. After all, I don't exactly go to a forum for an easy read anyway. But I totally respect and empathize with those who do not. Wink

Now, about those pikmin hitbox changes...
(04/03/2011 07:34 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]Or is it activated when all pikmin are dead and deactivated when at least one pikmin is in play?

Bingo. To do the solimar moveset, the game checks at the beginning of each move if pikmin exist or not, because as far as I know, it's impossible to check if a pikmin is present on the field... The whistle just guarantees that the pikmin is dead. This is how it checks for solimar/olimar. I made it as fast as possible, so that you can switch on the fly.

Quote:Also, in response to your signature (which seems to be in response to mine), I'd like to point out that Atheism is a belief that God does not exist in much the same way that Christianity is a belief that God does exist. Therefore, your assertion about the burden of proof applies to Atheists and Christians equally, as it also happens to be literally impossible to, scientifically or otherwise, prove a lack of God. By any chance did you mean to say that you were an Agnostic? "Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable." (Wikipedia.org, "Agnosticism")

Oh dear... Let's clear a thing or two up...
-Atheism is not necessarily the belief that there is no god, it is the lack of a belief in god. If you do not believe in god, whether you hold the belief that there is no god (a positive assertion that pulls the burden of proof onto itself) or simply reject the claim that there is a god (a non-assertion which most rational atheists hold), you are automatically an atheist by definition. Calling atheism a belief is for most atheists akin to calling not collecting stamps a hobby.
-Agnosticism is not a thing "between atheism and theism", it is an entirely different category; theism deals with belief, gnosticism deals with knowledge...
[Image: atheism_agnosticism_theism_gnosticism.jpg]
Basically sums it up. It's worth mentioning that both Gnostic Theist and Gnostic Atheist are completely untenable positions. Doesn't make me any less antichristian. Razz

And yes, it is in response to yours. Emoti-:V
Looks like I was just definition pwn'd. Still, since neither side can be factually proven, a lack of proof is not an argument for either side. So then, what is the real reason that you are anti-Christian?
"Still, since neither side can be factually proven, a lack of proof is not an argument for either side."

I think I'll jump in here. You're right that the lack of proof is in no way a claim that there is no god. But the point that he's making, via the "not collecting stamps" line, is that the lack of proof is reason enough to reject the claim that there is.

That is to say, his brand of atheism doesn't say "there is no god," or more accurately "there can't be a god." It says "there's not enough proof to convince me that there is." Which is a small difference, but worth pointing out.

But then, this is a forum about a video game. The deities we do or don't believe in... kind of irrelevant. And often dangerous territory, depending on who you're discussing it with.
Trust me, I know I'm treading treacherous waters. But I'm not trying to convert anybody here, I just want to know the reason he decided what he did.

See, when he decided to be an atheist originally, he did not (or at least should have not) gone from "I don't know if there is a God or not" to "I don't think there is a God" solely on the basis that nobody could prove there was a God because no one could prove there wasn't a God either. Some other factor(s) played a role in that decision, and it would be beneficial to me to know what that was. If I was trying to change his mind, then yes, I would bear the "burden of proof," but right now I'm not. I'm not going to start quoting the Bible and trying to convince you that Jesus is the only way to salvation here; I'm interested in mere pre-decision psychology. I figure someone as smart as The Cadet could give me some good answers on that front.

And I am totally up for talking about Olimar, too. I've been trying to do that. See my post on page one to spark some conversation on that front.
...We need an off topic section... Let's just hope no other admin shows up. :laugh:

off-topic
I see issues with faith in general. Not even specific to the christian faith in most cases (the christian-specific ones include wide parts of the old testament, clinging to creationism and wanting it taught in schools, and homophobia), but rather defined in general by faith in not necessarily a higher power, but to non-scientific concepts from god to homeopathy to the denial of global warming. Faith in something beyond the scientific rationalist thought processes lead to things like this.

I suppose you could call me a dogmatic Pearlist first, and moderate utilitarian second. I do not feel that any method of belief beyond that of physical evidence and reasoned logic, the basis of scientific discovery, has any use in our world. When presented with the concept of a god, if you start looking for evidence, you slowly but surely hit a stopping point because it is literally impossible to gather evidence or proof of god, as it is either arguing for the unknowable or the impossible.. And as a Pearlist, the complete lack of physical evidence for god, the fact that there can be no proof of any specific god whatsoever, and that the logical basis for any form of god on the ground of the "first cause" argument is shaky at best, leaves god a completely non-scientific concept, and that turns me away from him.

As far as justifying my beliefs, I point to first of all Occam's Razor (beyond the assumption that the universe as we experience it is real, Pearlism makes no further assumptions; all other religions assume god, an assumption that is unnecessary to understand reality), and second of all to the incredible success rate that Pearlism and the scientific methods have had-while religion ruled the world for thousands of years (pretty much since shortly after the turn of the century), it was a fucking wreck. People saw god everywhere and thought that prayer was the answer to everything-it wasn't. And then, in the 1600-1700s, people more or less discovered the scientific method and started making the world a better place with it. Religion has brought us prayer, churches, the inquisition and witch burnings, terrorism, the dark ages, and a completely unprovable eternal afterlife that may or may not exist... The scientific method has brought us modern medicine, increased our life expectancy by a good 30-40 years, taken us to the moon, explained most of the mysteries of the universe, allowed for mass transportation and communication, has almost ended hunger in modernized countries, and has improved our quality of life to the extent that other methodologies can only dream of. And all the while, it tells us, "Don't take my word for it-see for yourself!" That's pretty much the exact opposite of any religion, because it's not based on faith.

So why does this lead to me disliking religion to the extent that I feel justified in criticizing people for being religious? Well, religion is a non-scientific concept. To support the idea of any specific god, or any non-scientific concept, you have to ignore the scientific method and assume, which leads to a fairly good chance of making an ass of yourself. If you'd just take any random statement on faith, then there's something seriously wrong with your "bullshit" filter. I mean, imagine I told you about Zeus, and how he made the lightning, and how anyone who doesn't believe in him is damned to hades for all eternity... Would you take me seriously? This is how I react when I hear about Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, or any other modern deity.

And also, for the most part, religion also comes with serious baggage attached-these are the things I mentioned before like Homophobia (because an ancient book says so), rejecting scientific theories and evidence (because an ancient book says so), and latching on to an ancient book of, to be honest, incredibly brutal fairy tales (have you read the old testament? Yahweh is one MEAN motherfucker.) above all other knowledge. Granted, this isn't the case for all christian denominations, but think about it for a minute... How many people claiming "evolution CANNOT be real because the bible says so" is too many? I'm going to say "1". Replace evolution with heliocentrism and the flat-earth hypothesis (both clearly claimed by the bible in genesis alongside the creation story), and you'll see very quickly how ridiculous this sounds. Most religions enforce the belief in their holy book above most/all others, and this is simply not realistic. Especially for books whose content is closer to "The Brothers Grimm" than "Nature Weekly".

Furthermore, remember that "assume" statement? What's the difference between your faith and the faith of the 9/11 hijackers? You both assume a non-scientific, completely baseless claim... The only difference, I'd argue, is what that claim is and how seriously you're willing to follow it. Furthermore, it's not just your own faith... You pass it down to your children and teach them to see the world through the same eyes. I really think that this is not acceptable.

In short, the christian religion (as well as virtually every other religion) carries extreme baggage with it, faith itself in any non-scientific concept has extreme negative side effects on a person's judgement (seriously, watch that video I linked to above, There Are No Theists in Hospital Waiting Rooms), and ignoring faith and going off Physical Evidence and Reasoned Logic has led the world out of the dark ages and into a long period of prosperity. This is why I am a Pearlist, and Pearlism dictates Atheism as a logical conclusion of its dogmatism. This is why I have a serious issue with christianity, Islam, every other organized religion, alternative medicine, paranormal beliefs, and all other non-scientific concepts. And this is why your sig made me change mine.

Hopefully that clears a thing or two up. I think my position is perfectly reasonable, and I hope you spend the time reading this, because I spent the time writing it-it's pretty long, I know. Smile

So... Has anyone checked out solimar's grab? Man, that was hilarious to code. Big Grin
Perhaps we do! For now, I'll combine being on and off topic in a single post to make do.

off-topic
As I suspected, that was very insightful. I'm glad you put so much work into it; that's exactly the kind of thing I needed. This video in particular was extremely helpful. I agree with it entirely. So please, allow me to be helpful in return.

So far as I can tell, there is a growing cultural dislike towards religion for the reasons you have outlined on religious folk being... well, pretty nuts. Frankly, the majority of Christians and other religious people do follow a "blind faith," and in their zeal they try to get everyone else in the bandwagon with them. In Christianity's case, it's because firstly, Christ's last commandment to the apostles was to spread the word of the gospel, and secondly because we believe that He will return, and only those who believe will be saved. I'm sure you know that, and I know that it is factually hogwash. But ninety-nine percent of "pious" people still insist on bugging everyone about their religion. And I bet it's pretty annoying.

So I won't try to give any explanations on my faith here. The closest thing we have to a logical argument is best outlined in Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis if you're willing to take five hours to stomach it. (He's a really wordy guy and it will take a while to get where he's going... if you're pressed for time, start about six minutes into part two.) It is not scientifically provable and not trying to be, but it is probably the best thing for an atheist to hear or read to understand our faith.

So for now, that is all I am trying to do. I want people to understand our faith. For the hordes of radicals that ignore doctors, picket funerals, burn witches, deny global warming, terrorize, or simply ignore any scientific basis are people that do so in contradiction to the faith that they claim to be a part of. Simple human stupidity and selfishness has perpetuated a culture of "religious" people who preform immoral or simply stupid acts in the name of God, so the rest of society is lead to incorrectly assume Christian beliefs, at their core, coincide with that.

Simply put, I ignore you to understand that these things that disgust you about Christianity disgust those that are truly Christian as well. Indeed, religion used as justification for any act in contradiction with simple common courtesy is, with few exceptions, against the real views of the religion that they are trying to invoke. Please do not assume or even consider that these publicized events such as the westbourogh baptist church coincide with my beliefs.

I suppose main gap is a simple disagreement. You don't believe in Christianity because it cannot be scientifically proven, which is completely reasonable. No one can argue with that. I simply believe that, while it is unprovable, it can still be supportable and it can, of course, still be true. Obviously, that's not an argument for Christianity nor against Atheism, but it's a notable discrepancy that's worth considering. It's also worth noting that I lived my life as an atheist until high school, and converted to Christianity in an environment nearly devoid of Christians; no Christian friend nor Christian upbringing nor Christian family was involved. And I, like you, am a rational human being. I implore you to cast off the idea that religion is "blind faith." True, there exists no human method to divine the nature of the divine, but there are many things, many very important things, that humans cannot prove as an indisputable fact. Again, I will not attempt to convert you, but I invite you to consider that simply because something cannot be proven doesn't mean that it cannot be reasonably asserted and it certainly doesn't mean that it's not important.

Oh goodness yes the Solimar grab was pretty genius. A very nice way to solve the problem. Of course, it would be better if it wasn't just a vbrawl throw... *cough cough*
How the balls do you make those close-y tags?

And I, myself, can't help but wonder what caused you to convert, if not the influence of a more pious soul. (That sounds kinda derisive, and I don't mean it to be. I just can't come up with better wording.)
sblock is the tag.
Spoiler:
quote this
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