Smash Mods

I'll be surprised if this hasn't been discovered, but I don't see it used in any videos.

Problem?: In any match-up involving Ness and Lucas the simplest way to kill a recovering opponent is to PK Thunder (Up-B), move it over to the opponent, and wait for him to pull out his own PK Thunder (Up-B), and hit his projectile with yours. They cancel each other out, the opponent is left in free fall. He's dead, no question. Consider the amount of time it takes for an opponent to line up an Up-B properly to recover, and how little room for error there is (since you start re-gaining momentum and at some point can't catch up to yourself). Pretty sure both character's PK Thunders will outlast any recovering Lucas/Ness, even if spamming the momentum stopping PK Magnets.

Now I don't believe in "cheap moves", this is a valid tactic, but I'm not sure if this makes things imbalanced, since it's a guaranteed kill, every time, without fail. Either way, I'm curious to know if anyone has any ideas for Lucas or Ness to provide a counter to this, or if everyone in this house just plays terribly and isn't thinking of something.

Solution?: My only viable suggestion assumes Lucas's Up-B behaves like an airborne attack and cannot be cancelled out, vis-a-vis Dedede's Gordo. Fixes the problem, albeit not very innovatively.

EDIT: AFAIK I'm playing 1.6.

Doesn't Ness' PK thunder not fallspecial him if canceled? He can just do it again, and it takes longer or a PK thunder to reach below stage then it does to get one outta the way.

Lucas shouldn't even need his PK thunder with zap-jumped psi magnet momentum craziness, but if he does, shouldn't he have plenty of opportunity to angle activate PK thunder at a point where he could turn it so the tail faces the opponent's head?

You're saying the PK thunder is sent out preemptively and hovered above the opponent in order to interrupt their recovery, right? That works, for sure, but it's not t guaranteed thing, especially with PSI magnets and their impressive double jumps.

I mean, yeah, it can be annoying, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Of course, my avii and I are willing to concede in the face of contradictory evidence. Do you have any replays of it?

I'm sorry, (I now feel like a complete n00b, and) your post is so laden with terminology that either I'm unaware of, is ambiguous, or you made up, that I can't begin to know how to respond. Please clarify the underlined?

(02/09/2011 10:49 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't Ness' PK thunder not fallspecial him if canceled? He can just do it again, and it takes longer or a PK thunder to reach below stage then it does to get one outta the way.

Helpless free-fall? And since when can you cancel his Up-B? Even if Lucas' (which I'm doubting) does, Ness' definitely does not.

(02/09/2011 10:49 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]Lucas shouldn't even need his PK thunder with zap-jumped psi magnet momentum craziness, but if he does, shouldn't he have plenty of opportunity to angle activate PK thunder at a point where he could turn it so the tail faces the opponent's head?

I know of no way to activate a PK Thunder any way other than the default (Up-B), and no opponents head is involved in this equation; in this scenario my opponent's head is safely on stage, psionically harassing me with a PK Thunder.

(02/09/2011 10:49 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]You're saying the PK thunder is sent out preemptively and hovered above the opponent in order to interrupt their recovery, right? That works, for sure, but it's not t guaranteed thing, especially with PSI magnets and their impressive double jumps.

This move has it's own double jump? Assuming you meant Lucas, if I'm ever using PK Thunder as a recovery, it's because I don't have a second jump.

(02/09/2011 10:49 PM)Thunda-Moo Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, yeah, it can be annoying, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Of course, my avii and I are willing to concede in the face of contradictory evidence. Do you have any replays of it?

Wasn't aware replays existed in this game.

Apologies if it sounds like I'm nitpicking your syntax, I'm honestly just finding it hard to understand.

I am very sorry! I suppose I did use a lot of esoteric terminology. Allow me to define! (And no, I didn't make the terms up.)

"Fallspecial" is, indeed, another term for the helpless free fall state.

Yes, Ness' PK thunder cannot be canceled by other moves or jumps, you are correct. It becomes "canceled," as in stopped prematurely, by coming into contact with a foe, the stage, or anything else capable of taking damage like the Pillars on castle siege or the balloon on Smashville. It can also be clanged with by hitting another move, (like by Lucas' PK thunder, which is what you are talking about, yes?) which "cancels it." There are a lot of uses for the word "cancel," so I'm sorry for not giving more contextual clues!
Anyway, after Ness' PK Thunder is canceled via one of these methods, Brawl Minus allows him to use it one more time! That is what I was talking about. Lucas can't do that, I don't think, but I don't know!

Zap-Jumping is an advanced Lucas technique where use use PK fire as you jump and it doubles the height of the jump. You can see what I mean here. He can combine it with the PSI magnet to get crazy horizontal and vertical recovery off of his double jump, as seen here. To the best of my knowledge, these moves work in vbrawl and Minus the same.

"Angle activate" is not a thing. The sentence should have read "shouldn't he have plenty of opportunity to activate PK thunder at an angle where he could turn it so the tail faces the opponent's head?" My bad!

"Tail" and "Head" are references to parts of the PK Thunder projectile, not to parts of Ness and Lucas. The "head" is the circle at the tip that you control. Ness' projectile disappears when something hits the head. Lucas' projectile disappears when the head clangs with another move as well. But the "Tail" of the projectile, the snake-y part that follows the head, also has a hitbox but it can't be clanged. If you turn the projectile so that the "head" of your opponent's PK thunder hits the "Tail" of your PK thunder but NOT the head, their PK thunder will disappear while your PK thunder will not. Cool, huh?

You are right about how you don't use the PKT recovery if you have another jump, I grant you. I was just point out that their double jump is so awesome (especially Lucas' with the cool moves I showed you above) that you shouldn't require the PKT2 very often. (PKT2 is short for Psycho Kinetic Thunder Two, and references the form of PKT where you hit yourself. It is also called "PK Jibaku")

And no, the picture of Phoenix Wright that represents my forum-posting self (known as an "Avatar" or "Avii" for short) has absolutely no bearing on this conversation, Brawl Minus, or really much else. I was not implying otherwise. It just a little lighthearted joke, and you should play Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney so you can get that joke and also because it is a fun game that you will enjoy.

Anyway, I hope that cleared things up! Sorry for the misconceptions, and good luck not getting gimped by your buddies! Oh, and "Gimping" is a term for killing someone a low percents, generally by screwing up their recovery! Happy Brawling!

It all makes sense now!!!!!!

In regards to cancelling, I'm 99% sure it doesn't get cancelled and give him another one if you're hitting the PKT projectile. Regardless, after seeing that zap jump, I can see my argument is moot for Lucas! I'll definitely have to work on learning that one.

My girlfriend's been trying to get me to play Phoenix Wright for about a year now. Guess I'll give it a shot.

Thanks a lot for clarifying!

No problem! Happy to clarify!

...Keep in mind that the zap jump has very strict timing. I can't do it consistently at all. The PK fire into PSI magnet suddenly giving him massive horizontal momentum is pretty simple, though, and can be done without the zap jump as well as in conjunction with it.

With Ness, you're just going to have to out-predict your opponent. Try starting PKT earlier then you normally would (like from farther out from the stage inward as opposed to from below the stage upward) in order to get it out before your opponent starts up their own PKT. Ness and Lucas, I believe, don't have reduced horizontal movement speed in fallspecial like most characters, so you don't always have to reach the ledge to make it there. Also, recall PK thunder has upward knockback, so unless you're in danger of being stage-spiked you can also just get hit by it. Better to take the damage then die, eh?

Also: your Girlfriend is trying to get you to play Phoenix Wright? You, sir, have found the world's perfect woman. Good luck to you!

...this conversation has given me a bit of a brain fart. What if Lucas' (perhaps even Ness') Up-B was altered such that:

• If the B button is held, PKT2 happens automatically with no projectile, but is slow to start and guarantees fallspecial
• If the B button is merely tapped, the move operates as usual.
  

It would take some tweaking to make the timing appropriate, but it could give them some interesting options for PKT2 mid combo and eliminate the chance for opponents to gimp their recovery.

Or am I talking out my *** here...?

*Brain explodes*

I'm sure that that's totally possible in a number of ways, but that would be so freaking cheap unless you totally nerf PKT2 to worthlessness and that would be so freaking lame! Well, unless you make the start-up as slow as looping PKT normally, but then you really haven't solved the recovery problem at all!

The thing that makes PKT2 so awesome is the fact that it's basically Falcon Punch in headbutt form that you can combo into from the PKT tail (known as a "Swell Surprise" by Ness mains) or just mindgame the crap out of people with. There's nothing like navigating your PKT off-screen, and watching as the opponent dashes forth thinking you're venerable, not knowing that you've been navigating it to hit your butt the whole time, or sending a PKT up towards an opponent falling down on you, spinning it around as they predictably airdodge and catching them with the PKT2 as they're feeling smug about it. Going from a pause to just a straight-up PKT2 would just be so... unfufilling.

If you really feel like dealing with the problem (and I don't really see it as much of a problem) just make PKTs pass through other PKTs somehow.

Thunda: You do this a lot.

ven·er·a·ble/ˈven(ə)rəbəl/Adjective
1. Accorded a great deal of respect, esp. because of age, wisdom, or character: "a venerable statesman".

vul·ner·a·ble/ˈvəln(ə)rəbəl/Adjective
1. Exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally: "we were in a vulnerable position".

It doesn't really matter much, but I can't help but notice.

/grammarnazi

Ha! If you really were a grammar Nazi, you'd notice how often I mix up "then" and "than!"

Yeah, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for that one. I'm dyslexic, so I really have no choice but to rely on Firefox to keep my spelling right.

Firefox does not keep my spelling right.

...So I'll stay on the lookout for that one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I'm always working to improve!

How about if the PKT2 only went straight up and had charge up time? So it could be used in those situations where its really hard to get the PKT to his you as straight up as possible and if used in a combo it would give the opponent plenty of a chance to DI to the side and have the attack miss. How would that sound?