Its not so hard, pulling off a sleep into their face, then using max B and when connects doing rest. Yet, it kills sometimes at 20 and pretty much everyone at 40, heals jiggly and pretty safe. Maybe there is an easy way to avoid it, which I havent figured out yet, but so far it is too strong.
Sure, as darkkirby said a multiple times, mashing fast enough will get you out of sleep, but the move (B) is still way easier to connect then something like warlock punch. =)
Rollout is only that good because it doesn't keep rolling off the edge, you can JC it. And the fact that rollout hit has IASA into anything. Specifically the most popular, rollout to rest. Rest kills at 40% on mario, no DI, and middle of final destination. I am doing kill percent research and that is what Jigglypuff's rest kills at. We'll see if we change rest or not. Mid-weights die from rest around 40 and lightweights(gameandwatch, jigglypuff, ZSS?) die around 20.
Well, the rollout into rest is the move I was talking about. But I just tried on DK. At 44% I did sleep, giving me time to charge rollout and hit him with it to rest. As you can see the move coming from far you can start DIing before it hits but even with perfect DI there was no possible chance DK would survive, middle final destination. So how do you do it?
Also, at the edge, when you cancel sleep by grabbing the edge you can pretty much pull of rollout into rest at every %. Jigly on Jigly at 18% was a certain kill and even by mashing really fast, the frames to fall asleep and wake up are kinda enough to do it
Well, that does seem a little bit OP. The BR will look into this eventually.
Rollout seems like it should only have IASA on hit during the "pop-up and roll" animation.
Immediate IASA looks glitchy, and sloppy.
I would also like it to go into pop-up animation on a shield hit. Now mind you, with IASA frames this wouldn't make the move that punishable. It'd just make it more rewarding to skill and timing. Instead of throwing it out randomly when your opponent is between strategies to reset the field.
Also, reducing the knockback, tweaking the trajectory to be more vertical, and giving it some decent base kbg. This move could still combo into rest, and as i imagine it, it looks quite legit.
I think jiggs should be nerfed BIG TIME. Jiggs was a joke char in brawl, and honestly, it's one of the few things they did right. Jiggs is pretty much the MK of minus, which is so wrong that I can't even put it into words. I'm telling you, no; im BEGGING you, epic creators of minus. NERF JIGGLYPUFF.
Are you aware that he dies from ~40 from Luigi's Up-B? Also, he has trouble combo'ing floaties. Try using ZSS or something.
He used to be really good, but got minorly nerfed in 2.1.1. I've actually stopped using him because I don't think he's very good anymore. My guess is that in order to use him, it takes a lot of bairs, and a slowish baiting game that I find boring.
Jiggs is no longer OP thanks to uthrow-uair-uair-uair-rest not killing nearly everyone from zero, so that's nice.
On sing:
Don't quote me on this, but from what I understand, sing is also shield-able, as well as functioning as a very slow three-hit move, sleepboxes hitting only on the beat (the very start of JIGG, A-lly, and PUFF, if you understand that). It's not too hard to hit jiggs between the beats, not to mention that she can't put people to sleep unless they're on the ground. Sing cannot be thrown out: you pretty much have to use it against an expected attack, or use it off of a ledgehop for the good ol' sing cancel. The sing cancel, however, is crazy good in minus thanks to that huge range and looooong snooze time... without any of the lag!
Rollout comboing into an easy rest seems pretty overpowered, but Jiggs has to hit with sing to actually get a reliable strike out of rollout. And you know what? Hitting with sing in the first place is probably a little harder than pulling off a 0-death combo on Jigglypuff. She's a glass cannon, so her nonexistent survivability balances her extreme power. Of course, that was the idea for Phoenix in MvC3. Look how that turned out.
I support Issac's idea. Keep the combo, but make it require more skill and panache.
I don't think you can shield Sing. You just have to stay in the air if you get in range of Sing.
That is something to check up on, then. It doesn't sound like it should work.
Regardless, being in the air is not the most difficult thing to do. In fact, you merely need to press the jump button.
You can shield Sing, and that's the reason it's not very good. You can actually see Sing bounce off the shield, and that makes it very easy to get around.
Yes, I went back and double-checked myself and it is not only completely shieldable, but very easily punishable between its hits.
That said, Filburt, this does not make Sing "not very good." The move is really, really good if you know how to use it. It has an absolutely massive hitbox and connecting with it means you get a free rapetime on anyone you want. It's like saying Ganon's fSmash "isn't very good" because it has start-up lag and you can shield it.
It does, of course, make Sing not overpowered like some people seem to think it is, because it has startup lag and you can shield it. And, just like someone's fsmash, it is easily punishable on wiff if your opponent knows what they're doing. But it is in no way a poor move, ESPECIALLY from ledgehop where the lag is negated entirely.
I'm sure you know what I mean, Filbert, but for demonstrational purposes and anyone who may not:
This is the ledgesing.
Connecting with Sing gives you almost any combo starter you want at high percentages (where Rest would kill anyway) or whatever you have time for before they mash out (at low percentages).
While it's true that Sing is huge and can be useful, I feel like it's outclassed by most approaches. There are almost no situations that it's the best choice (in my opinion). You can generally shield Sing on reaction, and then Jiggly is helpless. In the event of ledgesinging, you either hit with it and get a decent combo, or you get spiked and die.
Ganon's Fsmash is fast compared to Sing, and isn't punishable on shield.
I can't imagine that a move that's shieldable on reaction and is so easily punished could possibly be viable.
Obviously, you use it when your opponent is unable to shield. Unless you're fighting someone who never misses it's not difficult to punish with Sing, especially considering that it can punish at ranges Jiggly's other moves can't.
Not to mention the fact that connecting with Sing means death at rather low percents. Putting someone to sleep gives you enough time to hit them with just about anything, and connecting with a ledgesing gives you more than enough time to connect with any of Jiggly's moves.
As for getting spiked out of ledgesing, if your opponent is in position to do that it's your own dang fault for ledgehopping anything, ya idiot.
Look, it has gigantic range, massive payoff, and slow startup. It is a punish move, and a really good one at that.
Oh, and it catches people really, really easy off of a tech or faceplant. Have you tried using it after a downthrow? Yes, Jiggs has other great throw combos, but it's certainly a contender if you're looking to mix things up.
Really, Filbert, if you can't find good uses for Sing then you're just not trying. Or maybe trying too hard, and being predictable.
Wait, I may see the problem:
"While it's true that Sing is huge and can be useful, I feel like it's outclassed by most approaches."
Sing is a terrible approach! That is true. Don't approach with it. It's an anti-approach or a punish. Approaching with it is terrible indeed.
Or you could just go in the air when Jigglypuff dedicates 180 frames to singing.
But what do you punish? Even if you predict the landing lag (holy crap you're good), the timing is still hard, especially considering that holding down shield as they land beats it. In the mean time, you could have either not done anything (not gotten punished), or used whatever aerial approach is easiest. I tech dthrow away most of the time, and I'm pretty confident that Sing won't hit that. This is also ignoring the fact that Uthrow is generally stronger (combo potential).
I do see what you mean though, the idea of a dthrow sing dthrow sing type techchase. I still am not confident though, seeing as the risk is huge (3 seconds of helplessness), and the payoff is only another dthrow. Obviously you do have other options instead of a dthrow, but I can't imagine why you wouldn't use those in the first place.
I dunno. Dthrow -> Sing -> Rest could be pretty nice, but dthrow -> sing is way to risky to be worth trying.
Sing has a long startup time, and I'm not going to be throwing out random smash attacks at a Jigglypuff.
Sing is not that good. It's not bad, but it's certainly not OP. If you miss with it, your opponent gets a free combo. Because of the long duration of the move, sing is easily punished with spike trajectory down airs, setting up better combos with the extra hitstun. Not to mention, people don't seem to realize how much mashing shortens sleep time. I don't think this move should ever be used unless you're ledge hopping or predicting a tech roll, otherwise it's just insanely unsafe.
Also, jiggs is too slow to chase an away tech roll from dthrow into sing unless you're near a ledge.
(11/11/2011 02:29 AM)TL? Wrote: [ -> ]Sing is not that good. It's not bad, but it's certainly not OP.
Yeah, basically.
(11/11/2011 02:29 AM)TL? Wrote: [ -> ]If you miss with it, your opponent gets a free combo.
And if you hit with it, you get a free combo. Jiggs is high-risk, high reward, and this move is the highest.
(11/11/2011 02:29 AM)TL? Wrote: [ -> ]Not to mention, people don't seem to realize how much mashing shortens sleep time.
That's true. You still get a free almost anything off of ledgehop sing, but outside of ledgehop this move is indeed worthless until mid percents.
(11/11/2011 02:29 AM)TL? Wrote: [ -> ]Also, jiggs is too slow to chase an away tech roll from dthrow into sing unless you're near a ledge.
I know. But if you are near a ledge, I'm pretty sure Sing is guaranteed unless you walk into their getup attack somehow.
(11/11/2011 02:29 AM)TL? Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think this move should ever be used unless you're ledge hopping or predicting a tech roll, otherwise it's just insanely unsafe.
I pretty much agree. There are other places where the move can shine, but yes, if you screw up Sing, you die. I simply refuse to accept that the high risk makes the move bad, because that is simply not true. The high risk DOES make the move extremely hard to use, but simply not being able to use a move reliably doesn't make it bad. The quality of a move,
theoretically, is measured by how often it ends up being your best option. High risk/high reward moves very frequently pop up as your best option- especially when that move is the largest ranged move you have and has transcendent priority. The issue is the human element: mispredicting. Because of the risk of misprediction, moves are frequently judged in quality additionally by how "safe" they are, i.e., how screwed you may or may not be on wiff. This is the quality of moves as judged
experimentally, and is generally the better indicator of how often moves are used in a match. Sing is not safe at all, so it is by this judgement a terrible offensive move. That's just true, I'm not arguing with that.
Of course, if you use sing as a reaction to certain actions by the opponent, (using sing defensively, basically) you discount the issue of prediction. And the number of moves Sing can beat on reaction is quite high, given proper spacing. The move has a lot of potential, and with a sizable enough playstyle shift can be a huge addition to your game, as long as you can properly judge when your opponent feints. The potential of the move is massive: it can give you a free combo whenever someone commits to a grounded attack.
But it is, indisputably, a situational move, so much that it may be considered sub-par purely because we're not perfect beings or TAS-makers when we fight our friends. There's nothing we can do about that, yeah. But I'd nonetheless like to see someone get good with sing. It would be beautiful, and far from impossible.
Why not make Sing somehow better, then? Her vocal cords have always been her main shtick. Yes, we all enjoy how she can quickly float through the air like nobody's business, but when you think of Jigglypuff, you think of her voice first and foremost. It seems a shame that even in minus, the only move involving her voice is so unsafe as to pretty much discourage any use of it.
Can it work on shields? Can it be cancellable? Give her some type of armor while she's using it? Just throwing ideas out there.
Sing is fine how it is. She has far worse moves in her arsenal and other characters have way worse moves. The only way to really avoid sing being easy to punish would be to make it hit aerial opponents, which would make them go into free fall I guess? Either way that'd hardly be a warranted buff given the ramifications of such a change.